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Discussion Starter #1
i have the chance to buy a teksid block and cobra steel forged crankshaft both for 300-400 dollars

the block is .20 over freshly honed

i already have pi heads, cams, intake .... basically from the head gasket up really the top half and 2 whole npi engines 96

i know this can all work together and that i'll have to drill the water passage hole in the block

but i am wondering what else ill need for this block and need to do to the block to make this work and if i can use anything from the engines i already have, this is really my first custom engine build

i know the main stuff that the block is made up of but i need to know all the parts that go into making this block besides the block and crank

like what type of pistons would i need ive been reading searching under teksid and ive heard so many combos and if its to much compression or not and im confused what would be my options for pistons and what would it do
what cc sould i be getting? will i need to notch the pistons?

94/95 timing cover? i got 3 96's

mark oil pan?

rods? any measurment specifics?

oil pump/pick-up?

bearings,gaskets,seals, tty bolts

i know i can get the parts but what do i need to know about what parts i should be getting to make all this work

will a machine shop help build an engine or just get the parts in spec?
 

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msp252,

My Teksid-based 2V is NPI, so I can't comment about PI-related details. But, I can give you a bit of guidance on some other points:

Front cover - You need the pre-96 design. I got mine off a '93 Town Car, but the most commonly specified source is the 94/95 T-Bird. Obviously you'll need matching gaskets.

Oil pan - I'm running the Mark VIII pan to gain the extra quart of capacity, but the T-Bird pan also fits. If you go with a Mark VIII pan you'll also need Mark VIII trans cooler lines because they are shaped differently to clear the pan extension.

Oil pump - I went with a Cobra high output pump and the matching Mark VIII pickup tube. Most people say the Cobra pump is overkill, so you could go with a standard 2V pump and tube.

Chain guide pivot pins - You need the ones which thread into the aluminum block, rather than the ones which press into the cast iron block.

Before getting into rods, pistons, etc, what are your plans for the engine? N/A or S/C? What RPM limit?

MikeB
 

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Discussion Starter #3
my plans are little vague right now but i really want to build this engine for forced induction
but that'll be further down the road

so i need strong internals

i want it to be at least 400 hp/tq but i dont know how hard that'll be
i have no idea for rpm limit

im trying to see how hard it'll be now

what do you think about this below

Chain guides have to be from the 2v. The 4v stationary guides will not work, because of the angle they were set to on the 4v heads.

Tensioner arms must be the 2v arms also. I tested the 4v arms but they are a different angle and shape, and don't fit the chains properly. HOWEVER, you have to modify the 2v tension arms to work with the teksid. My method? Glad you asked..... There is a metal insert in the 4v arm for the bolt that goes into the block. Remove the metal insert and use it on the 2v arm. You'll have to drill out a 7/16 hole thru the 2v arm mounting hole (where the dowel used to go) so you can fit the metal insert. This allows the bolt (from the 4v) to tighten the arm down against the block, but still have the arm move about freely. The bolt is tight against the metal insert, instead of tight against the arm. Worked perfectly on my last build.

Crank wheel can be either the 4v or the 2v, but the stamped steel unit is stronger than the cast unit from the older modulars. Supposedly the cast piece can crack or shatter with a bad vibration, but the stamped piece will not.

Timing chains are the same length from the Teksid 4v to the 2v cars. Obviously, use the ones that are in better shape (i.e. less miles, or least abused engine)


The info on the changes to the tensioner arms is confusing. I bought the thread in pins for a 4V swing arm as mine were missing. What needs to be modified on the arms as they slide right onto the '99 pins and the '93 Teksid 4V thread in pins also I "think"? It seems there was something different for alignment as I went and bought 4V arms but they are not right at all. The 2V arms are tapered where they attach and the 4V arms did not have the taper. I may need Romeo arms instead of the Windsor arms I have being a '99. Confirmation for myself and he others asking the same question please? I do believe Itried the '99swing arms and they did NOT align correctly with the stationary arms.
I'll get to the shop today and check this out again. So the '99 crank sensor gear is the stamped and better piece? About to have this buttoned up and still not 100% sure:) THX!

***There is a metal insert in the 4v arm for the bolt that goes into the block. Remove the metal insert and use it on the 2v arm. You'll have to drill out a 7/16 hole thru the 2v arm mounting hole (where the dowel used to go) so you can fit the metal insert. This allows the bolt (from the 4v) to tighten the arm down against the block, but still have the arm move about freely. The bolt is tight against the metal insert, instead of tight against the arm. Worked perfectly on my last build.*** THIS IS WHAT IS CONFUSING. THE TEKSID HAS THREAD IN PINS AND NOTHING THAT IS TIGHTENED AGAINST A "SLEEVE" THAT I KNOW OF. CLARIFICATION PLEASE?
PS: I have the '93 Teksid block and swing arm pins. 2V stationary arms. 2V swing arms. 2V chains and gears for crank and cams, aftermarket. Anything missing or incorrect as mine are all Windsor parts and he block is of course a Romeo. Do I need Romeo swing arms and if so what year? THX again!

thats the stuff im wondering about how many modification building this engine will take
so if this block is a 96 teksid would it have the bolts for the arms or dowels

can i use the stuff off my npi 2v
 

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There are a hundred different ways to go with this build but to keep it simple it comes down to what you want out of the motor. If you just want to build an aluminum PI motor which it sounds like thats the direction you want to go, you already have most of what you need. The forged crank will be a good invesment but you can run your stock NPI pistons and rods with it if your not gonna throw a ton of boost at it and/or dont want to put out the cash for the forged pieces. I'd say if you have the time and the cash, search all the ford forums, you can usually come across good deals on forged rods and pistons pretty easy. No special sizes are need since you arent going stroker, just .020 over on the pistons and stock length rods and your set. If you run the 11cc(NPI) pistons you will get around 10.5:1 compression against a PI head. An 18cc(PI) piston will get you stock compression rate roughly 9.8:1 You shouldnt need piston notches if your running stock PI cams, but check with Nick McKinney for verification on that. You can use one of the fron covers you already have, but the 94/95 cover lines up perfectly, where as the 96 covers put one of the bolt hole out of place and it will need to be sealed up with some silicone. I know of alot of people who have done that, myself included and had no troubles. Either the T-bird or Mark pan whichever your preference is, they are the same with the excetion of the extra quart in the Mark pan. I stayed with my stock T-Bird pan as I have a remote oil cooler and filter mount so I already have a 9 quart system, I didnt need the extra quart in the pan. The Cobra pump and pickup is cheaper than the stock pieces but like stated above many many say overkill so thats up to your discretion. Whatever pump you run you will need the matching pickup tube, The Cobra pump you need a Mark tube or if you stay stock T-Bird you can reuse your stock pickup tube. Any Mustang pan or pickup tube will not work. As for bearings and gaskets I used all stock type ford gaskets I sourced from Rockauto as they had the best prices with the exception of the head gaskets. I got the Ford Racing head change kit from summit it comes with new head bolts and head gaskets for less than you can buy the stuff seperatly, best bang for the buck by far. Bearings I got were Clevite 77 H style bearings for a Mark 8 motor, best price I found on those was on Ebay, something like 160 bucks for main and rod bearings. Be sure to have the machine shop check your clearances and order the correct size bearings, i.e. std. std. or .010 under and so on. Here is a link to the part numbers you will need for the timing components,
http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?p=7809168
That gives you the part numbers for the pivot pins and swing arm guides you need. I used standard 2v stationary guides and reused a set of iron tensioners I had with standard 2v chains. If you go to this website you will find all the parts you need at a very good price, takes a minute of seraching but they are there I promise this is where I got all my timing components, http://www.tousleyfordparts.com/ Also you can read through my build post here, http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=122504 and that should more information, but if you have any other question feel free to ask me. My build was completed less than 2 months ago so all this information is fresh in my mind. Good luck. Jim
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited by Moderator)
is there anything im forgetting to ask this guy about the teksid block and crank

This motor suffered bad rod bearings

any spun mains?
No. All the bearings came out looking like new. The engine was removed only because the car was being parted out.

is this crank good inplay on rear main?
There were no thrust issues. The thrust surfaces of the bearings looked great and the crank has no damage to the thrust faces. clean at .10 under

http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?p=7809168
That gives you the part numbers for the pivot pins and swing arm guides you need. I used standard 2v stationary guides and reused a set of iron tensioners I had with standard 2v chains. If you go to this website you will find all the parts you need at a very good price, takes a minute of seraching but they are there I promise this is where I got all my timing components, http://www.tousleyfordparts.com/ Also you can read through my build post here, http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=122504 and that should more information, but if you have any other question feel free to ask me. My build was completed less than 2 months ago so all this information is fresh in my mind. Good luck. Jim

Ford resized the pin and arm @1998, so for the future you'll need 2 pivot pin bolts YR3Z-6K282-AA, LH swing arm 1R3Z-6L253-AA and RH arm 1R3Z-6L253-BA
so this is all ill need to get for the timing chains and i can use everything else from my engine now

Ford resized it around 1998 and you should NOT mix the arms and piviot pins up and please DO NOT enlarge the hole on the swing arm, always buy the newer style swing arms and the new larger piviot bolts, failure to-do so will result in engine damage...

this is confusing me the teksid is a 96 and my engines are 96's so why would i be getting the newer style arms if they changed them in 98 wouldnt it not work for this block
 

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If you are using a Teksid block and putting 2v PI heads on it, the pivot pins and swing arm part numbers listed above are the ones you need. I went to that website and put in those part numbers and ordered what it pulled up, I cant explain why, but I assembled my motor without a problem and it runs perfectly. I didnt understand the whole explanation of changing this and that and redesigned peices, I just know for a fact it works correctly. But yes everything else is standard 2v stuff, chains and tensioners and stationary guides use what is on your 2v motor now. I bought all new pieces but that was just my choice, if your stuff is in good shape, you can leave it be if you like. I don't reccomend it, but like I said thats your choice. And any motor that had bad bearings of any kind should be taken to a machine shop and checked over good. As long as the journals look good no pits or scoring or nothing bad enough that it cant be polished out, just let them tell you what size bearing you need to get and go from there. Now if you want to build it with all forged internals then carry the block and crank to the machine shop, have them look both pieces over good and get what bearing they tell you, then order or scrounge up your forged rods and whatever size forged pistons you need with new rings and have them balance the whole thing. If you plan to go supercharged later down the road and want the security of the forged parts now is the time to install them. Also you will want the 18cc dish piston to keep your compression ratio down to where you can run a good amount of boost and not have an issue. The 11cc pistons I used are prolly to much for a blower that puts out more than 6 or 7 psi, and even that may be too much I dont know yet. Also head studs and main studs arent a bad idea, not required but if your in there and building a bullet proof bottom end for a blower its not a bad idea. At a minimum I would say new head bolts and main bolts to be safe, again not required but not a bad idea.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
ok ive heard the cobra pump is over kill and the oil pump i have will be fine but what about this, it says that i should get the cobra ho pump because its an alum block


Preface: The 4.6L/5.4L modular engines use a gerotor type oil pump to supply the oil pressure necessary for these engines. This type of pump utilizes two separate gears, one of which is spun by the snout of the crankshaft. This is the smaller gear located in the middle of the pump housing. The larger gear is spun off the middle gear and is located inside the pump housing. The oil pump housing is made of aluminum and can be affected easily by debris in the oil. If this occurs, galling of the pump housing will happen and this increases the clearance between the tip of the internal gear and the housing.

There have been two different oil pumps used on factory modular engines. The first one being the 2V pump that features a 0.470” thick gear set, and the other being the 4V pump featuring a 0.510” thick gear set. The design of each pump and their respective housings are identical. The reason for two separate oil pump designs is quite simple. The smaller thickness 2V oil pump was used on all iron block engines, while the larger “HO” oil pump was used on the 4V aluminum based engines. Aluminum based blocks expand with heat much more rapidly than Iron based blocks, and as a result the clearance in the main bearing journals expand more. As the main bearing clearance expands, more oil will leak past the bearings and back into the pan. To correct this issue, the use of a higher volume pump is required. The 4V high output pump is simply a design to help increase oil flow on aluminum based engines, such that the oil pressure in the oil galleys will stay high enough. The iron based 2V engine blocks do not require the same amount of oil flow as their aluminum counterparts, and therefore can withstand using the lower volume pump.

Now it may seem that in the case of oil flow, more is better. This is not always the case, as too much oil flow can cause issues of cavitation and power loss. The factory oil pumps were designed to supply enough pressure for all aspects of the engine at hot oil temperatures. The oil pump was also designed to operate with the internal pressure relief valve in the closed position. In high performance engines, many people assume that the use of a “H.O.” large volume oil pump is required. This is not always the case, as the use of a large volume 4V pump on an iron block can cause the internal relief valve to stay open at moderate to high speeds. When the relief valve is open, you run the risk of the oil bypassing through the valve and back into the suction side, which can lead to cavitation. Cavitation is the cause of oil aeration (aka air in the oil system) and can wipe out bearings in a short amount of time.

Aftermarket Upgrades:

Since the modular oiling system uses a wet sump type system, the only choices you have to upgrade are with billet oil pump gears. The factory oil pump gears, found in the pump housing are made of powder metal. These gears are easily susceptible to high torsional loads on the crankshaft. As torsional vibration increases on the crank snout, the more load the pump gears face. Due to their weak structure, they are prone to cracking and breaking. A set of billet gears are made with a Rockwell hardness much greater than the factory gears, and as a result can withstand much more load. The concern with aftermarket oil pump gears is the “tip to tip” clearance tolerance. Factory gears are found with a .002” clearance, while many of the aftermarket gears can be found with a .008-.012” clearance. The result of a larger clearance is lower overall efficiency and pressure. If any aftermarket gears are to be installed in your oil pump, I would strongly suggest measuring the clearance to ensure your set is within spec.

It should also be noted that the factory oil pump and gears were designed to withstand the vibrations from the factory harmonic balancer. The use of a smaller diameter balancer or one with inadequate vibration dampening can increase the risk of oil pump damage. Many of the aftermarket under drive pulley setups do infact increase this risk.
 

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I went with a melling replacement pump with the standard 93-95 pickup tube. I just don't see the need for high volume with 2v heads.
I am using the crank from the teksid. Of all the OEM cranks and rods I have seen the teksid appear to be the best. If stock rods are what you want I have a complete set for cheap, if you want forged rods I suggest going with the cobra rods, don't go with some tremendously heavy rod. THe Mahle pistons are the best I have seen and are not heavy. Adding heavy metal to the crank for balance is expensive.
Alan
 

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I seen Jims (cableguys) engine.. Great build! Very clean and sounds/ performs great!! He did an excellent job!!
 

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Discussion Starter #12
So I got the teksid, but not the crank, I ended up getting an entire 96 Mark VIII motor, I also have an untouched 96 engine, and a 96 with the pi top end swap. I want to build a bullet proof bottom end, with low compression (8-8.5) for boost. I've read if you build the 2v right it's as good as a 4v or better, and that's what I want to do, I think there is no room in the bay anyway. I want to get all steel forged internals and arp studs, what else will I need for a block that can handle tons of boost? I'm going to get all new components for the timing chains, is there anything I can use from my collection of engines that won't be a bad idea? I'm thinking about twin supercharging this engine with a centrifugal wynnjammer (8-9psi max)that runs on its own belt and a roots AED,SVO,Roush,...,...(6-9 psi) that runs on the stock drive belt, or getting a stupid expensive Kenny Bell or tork tech (15+). For the heads I guess for now I'll be using the P.I Heads that I have but would pay for the trickflow or whatever are any of the aftermarket heads designed for boost The trick flows website talk about an N/A motors. I know there are cams for boost haven't looked into them deeply as I am not this far yet.
 

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Twin supercharging is like having two girlfriends. Yeah, it looks cool but in reality its more trouble than its worth. You don't want forged steel pistons, steel while strong is very heavy as well as more brittle than forged aluminum. If you want a reliable street engine that makes 400-450whp/tq I'd say go with Manley forged pistons and H beam rods, OEM cast crank, with a good head and cam combo and a matching intake manifold. Maybe run some water-meth when you're racing.
 

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I've read if you build the 2v right it's as good as a 4v or better
uh no... :)

Twin supercharge? Sounds like wishful thinking to me.. I would look at OxmanWI's torktech project here http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=138048 but that's just me I like the idea of the roots blower. Kenne bell would be cool too but I think your spending more on the name than anything.
 

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Twin supercharging is like having two girlfriends. Yeah, it looks cool but in reality its more trouble than its worth. You don't want forged steel pistons, steel while strong is very heavy as well as more brittle than forged aluminum. If you want a reliable street engine that makes 400-450whp/tq I'd say go with Manley forged pistons and H beam rods, OEM cast crank, with a good head and cam combo and a matching intake manifold. Maybe run some water-meth when you're racing.
I would not hesitate doing a forged crank. They are MUCH easier to balance with forged rods and pistons. I know my machinist thanked me because he only had to drill out some material, instead of the whole mallory modification that needs to be pressed & welded into the counterweights. I also know RobertP's machinist had a heck of a time trying to balance a cast crank with forged rods and pistons.

msp252, for 15 psi boost or less, all you need are basics that you've already mentioned: arp hardware (main studs and head studs), forged rods, forged pistons, forged crank. You have not mentioned exhaust, but you need a damn good one when going boosted. TFS heads flat out work for N/A and boost, no mystery there.


oh and BTW, low compression "for boost" is for people who can't (IE: don't know how) to control ACT's after the blower. If you're ok with this, I'm ok with this, as this isn't my build, but you're giving up A LOT of power if you're going that low of compression just to avoid researching (and spending on) proper methods of controlling the ACTs.
You need to look at rings. N/A rings are much different from optimal boost rings. Talk to your machine shop about this (unless you are doing this yourself, then just look around).

Find a good way to vent crankcase blowby, unless you want your intake manifold full of oil. It's not as easy as it sounds to control this if you're planning on high boost, and a stock pcv system will certainly not be up to the task.

I'm not even gonna touch the "tons of boost" statement. This ain't no kiddy mustang site. We're big boys. Either talk real tech (IE: be specific with NUMBERS), or brag to the 16yo's about "tons of boost".
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I want twin supercharged because the supercharger I have now works in the higher rpms, the roots I want to get could fit in there. I heard that the roots stop making boost at 5500rpm, so if I have both ill have the boost from roots off the line and boost from the centrifugal in the higher Rpm plus the combined psi of them both. I definitely want all forged internals so steel forged crank, aluminum forged rods and pistons? I have more than 350 hp now out of a stock block with a top end pi swap and a supercharger. if I'm going to build an engine I want major gains, so that's why I want to build a bullet proof block with better heads and cams, and a better or twin superchargers.
 

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have you even the slightest clue as to how much power will be needed to overcome the spinning of a centri AND a roots all at once?

unless you're a master fabricator and welder, this has no chance of getting off the ground because if you had the cash to pay someone to do something like this (which would easily take around $20,000+), it would already be done. Just saying.....

We all wait for the days that these kinds of builds become reality.....
 
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