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kdanner said:
This crap again?

Ok, my standard response:

Show me one, just one NA 5.4 2V, in any vehicle making good power or running quick down the track. Just one.
I know that you sometimes see the world through *** *** ****!
EDITED BECAUSE KD DID NOT KNOW FOR WHOEM HE WAS FIGHTING FOR WHEN HE ATTACKED THE TRANNY POST!

Take a 4.6L with the same mods as I have and compare. Simple math says that I have the same HP and more torque. It is foolish to maintain your argument. All you do is compare a race built 4.6 against a stock 5.4L with bolt-on's.
 

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Johnny Langton said:
Well,I realized that I needed an intake,and I figured out a solution.
Creativity,and work will get it done.All I hear from 5.4L swapped owners are claims of dyno numbers without sheets for proof(Brian Stahl),the classic "no traction" excuse(all of them),and intake manifold needs(all of them).I cut up perfectly good intakes just to research what could be done,and then fixed my problem so that wouldn't be a problem.
JL
You forget I have a life besides playing with cars. I have to create too many "first time custom" things day to day. I tend to shy away from it in my home life. I was hoping others will do it for me. But trust me when I say that if I do, you will find out after it is complete. Not sooner.

If you want numbers I suggest you read "Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords" September 2003. 299 HP 5.4L.
 

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Johnny Langton said:
Well,I realized that I needed an intake,and I figured out a solution.
Creativity,and work will get it done.All I hear from 5.4L swapped owners are claims of dyno numbers without sheets for proof(Brian Stahl),the classic "no traction" excuse(all of them),and intake manifold needs(all of them).I cut up perfectly good intakes just to research what could be done,and then fixed my problem so that wouldn't be a problem.
JL
Gee, JL what was your solution? inquireing minds gotta know :) ... I am not having probs with my manifold , whatsoever. It just took some judicious cutting to get the flowpaths rite and shorten runner length to a tad less than 10".... and the traction isnt all that bad... numbers at 4200 lbs kinda sux, but next time Ill leave the beer cooler behind and arrange to have less than a full tank. Might even cheat and let a friend whose 150 lbs lighter try her for giggles ... n' maybe It will be around 4000 lbs even gvw, who knows/ might get a few respectable passes?
jake
 

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mylittleblackbird said:
Lets do a little figuring... How many 4.6L N/A 2v T-Bird/Cougar's are there registered at this sight? Now figure how many 5.4L N/A 2v T-Bird/Cougar's there are.... figure out the ratio(probably around 350ish:1 in a 4.6 vs 5.4. Now your mission is to show us 350ish 4.6 N/A 2v T-Bird/Cougar's running "fast' down the track and putting up these big numbers.

P.S. This is a homework assignment for K Danner.
Proof that you can't help the willingly ignorant.
JL
 

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5.4 in a bird

I have seen a 5.4 stuffed into a bird. It is extreemly tight. The person that did this had to use a soild rubber motor mount on the driverside to make sure that the motor did not rotate and do any dammage. In my oppinion I would recomend building up a strong 4.6 bird. A built up 4.6 would be much easier to do than a 5.4. There are some guys getting 300 to the wheels NA on a 4.6. A 4.6 wiht a PI or FRPP manifold, ported heads, nice cams, diecent exhaust and other things will really scream.
 

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If the 5.4 liter engine had a p e n i s, it still wouldn't have enough torque to get you off of it.



mylittleblackbird said:
Lets do a little figuring... How many 4.6L N/A 2v T-Bird/Cougar's are there registered at this sight? Now figure how many 5.4L N/A 2v T-Bird/Cougar's there are.... figure out the ratio(probably around 350ish:1 in a 4.6 vs 5.4. Now your mission is to show us 350ish 4.6 N/A 2v T-Bird/Cougar's running "fast' down the track and putting up these big numbers.

P.S. This is a homework assignment for K Danner.
 

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mylittleblackbird said:
Have you ever tried to be different JL?


Also, if you are going to quote my questions to KD, please provide a CORRECT answer with it. Thank you.

Someone is feeling rather arrogant today, eh? :rolleyes:
 

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Palmguy said:
Someone is feeling rather arrogant today, eh? :rolleyes:

More or less... but I haven't got much to lose. I see a pissing match because some people want to use a 5.4L over a 4.6L. Are we really that much different? We want more motor, you want more of a Mustang than a T-Bird.... I don't want any more of this discussion... all it does is divide people up and cause problems. JL, KD, congrats, you got fast 4.6L cars. But don't crap on other peoples idea's because they aren't your own....

Long live the saying "There is no replacement for displacement"


P.S. I took the effort to remove my useless posts out of this thread, the ones that had no relation to the thread. Now can we all get along and play nicely in the sandbox?
 

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To bad I am not a moderator, the usefulness of this thread is all washed up.
 

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Man something crawled up somewhere. I don't have the disposable income to make my own intake etc. I'll just have to rely on others. I live almost 100 miles from the track and have a fuel cell in my trunk, no where to put slicks and I'm not driving to the track on them.

Now for the part that pertains to the thread: I like my 5.4. I like torque! I love torque! Swapping a 5.4 can be done for a little more money and effort than a newer 4.6. I like having a 5.4 because everytime I open the hood people go, WOW, what is that. That's an engine from a what?? I know others have done it, but I've never met them in purpose. It's different, it's fast, it's fun, it's a hobby. Would I do it again, YES! Would I have been more conservative with a few things like my fuel system, definitely.

If you have the time and budget to commit, yes I would recommend doing it. If you want a faster car without too much trouble, a PI mustang engine or head/cam swap is a good choice.

Someone above made a 350:1 comparison. It's partially true. There isn't a big market to make NA 5.4's fast and compatible with a car. It's a truck engine.

Stop quoting Brian Stahl. He hasn't posted here in a very long time so cannot defend himself. J.Miller can give good testimony that BStahl's article is a little simple for the effort, but it's a good guideline.

I respect you guys, regardless of the engine you choose. You're using your time, effort and abilities to make your car unique. That's all I'm doing.

Dan
 

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Discussion Starter #51
well guys,

sorry to make a thread that gets people into a tiff.... But im glad to see the actuall full on responses here.

I like torque, I personaly like to accelerate more than going fast. Going fast is what kills you (in my mind).

For everyday driving and making the car "go" when I want it to... (Like pulling into busy traffic and being able to have the power to do so) is all I look for in an engine.


Im not a racer.... I like to enjoy my car, not push the limits.

So If I had the time and money to drop a 5.4 in now I would. (which I prolly will in a year or two). But for now I think Im gonna grab a used whole 4.6 GT PI engine and throw it in.


Thanks for all the insight and even the rabling, it shows your true feelings on this project.

Thanks Guys,

MG
 

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mylittleblackbird said:
More or less... but I haven't got much to lose. I see a pissing match because some people want to use a 5.4L over a 4.6L. Are we really that much different? We want more motor, you want more of a Mustang than a T-Bird.... I don't want any more of this discussion... all it does is divide people up and cause problems. JL, KD, congrats, you got fast 4.6L cars. But don't crap on other peoples idea's because they aren't your own....

Long live the saying "There is no replacement for displacement"


P.S. I took the effort to remove my useless posts out of this thread, the ones that had no relation to the thread. Now can we all get along and play nicely in the sandbox?
I'm not crapping on it. It's a simple request. Show me one, just one car or truck of any type with an NA 5.4 2V that makes any power or runs any decent elapsed times. Do that, and I'll quit saying this. I mean after all they have made millions of trucks/vans/expeditions with them right? Surely somebody can find just *ONE* out there right? I keep saying NA, and people keep talking about blown ones especially Lightnings. I own one, I know what they can do blown, that isn't relevant to this topic whatsoever.

There is replacement for displacement. It's called horsepower. And to date I haven't seen a single example of an NA 5.4 2V making any. I have personally made 218RWHP from a stock 96 NPI 4.6 with nothing more than stock PI cams and intake. I think the best 5.4 I have seen so far is not 20HP more than even that simple example.
 

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Nicktcfcsb said:
4.6s never die they just smoke a lot and end up in taxis!
Did you say "Texas"... JL did you pick another beater?? :D




I asked a pretty experienced engine builder and Ford expert his opinion about the 5.4 vs 4.6 arguement.. he had a lot to say.. he builds both.. but some highlights:

regarding the 5.4:
Between the lack of cylinder head (bore restricted valve size) and the fact that at 4.06" of stroke (on a 5.4L) the piston speeds are astronomical when you get up in the RPM the 5.4 has some inherent faults the you just can't get around ... The problem of piston speed and trying to keep the rings seated on the walls is the next hurdle...
Sorry to interject some tech in mostly BS thread... but I couldn't resist.. now this guy has no axe to grind with the 5.4 and he has built both engines...

Regarding his experience with full blown applications:
I've built many 5.4L Lightning engines and they make 650 or so to the tires with a KB. I worked with Jim Bell on a 4.6L 2V KB blown and it too made about 650 to the tires... Not bad numbers but no big jump in power due to the added cubic inches....
I really do admire the guys willing to try the 5.4 thing, but they were advised of the drawbacks and the obstacles they would have to overcome before they started, and well, to point at those same drawbacks and obstacles now and say, "if only we had a better intake" doesn't change the fact that the naysayers were right.

and I tend to agree with KD, that until someone impresses me with some actual HP numbers and track times, I'm gonna stick to the 4.6 route.. it's so much easier and cost effective... IMHO

But what do I know, I only got 265 to wheels and ran mid 13's in a 4.6L with a screwed up TC, a slushbox '95 stock trans, a corked stock NPI intake, and a few (albeit, expensive) bolt ons.. :cool:

-mike
 

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Mike, on the PD blower thing, this is something I have thought about quite a bit lately. I feel that with a PD blower combination, it is the blower that is everything. Anything else can provide some gains but they always seem to be minor. Take a stock lightning motor with a given blower/pulley combination. Run the same blower/pulley combo on one with heads/cams/headers and it doesn't pick up much power really, certainly not worth what it cost. I feel the small amount gained is only due to allowing more blower efficiency(less manifold pressure at a given airflow rate). Now go to a bigger blower or pulley it harder and the power jumps right up on either engine. Same deal, look at what a Lightning makes versus what a Cobra makes, both with M112 blowers. Pretty similar power. Sure the Cobra makes more at the wheels, but it doesn't have a 4R100 trans and a 9.75" rear either. On an engine dyno they would be close. M90 on an SC versus M90 AED on a 4.6, pretty similar power when pullied about the same there too. Your example also further illustrates this, the displacement does nothing, it's all about the blower.
 

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kdanner said:
Mike, on the PD blower thing, this is something I have thought about quite a bit lately. I feel that with a PD blower combination, it is the blower that is everything. Anything else can provide some gains but they always seem to be minor. Take a stock lightning motor with a given blower/pulley combination. Run the same blower/pulley combo on one with heads/cams/headers and it doesn't pick up much power really, certainly not worth what it cost. I feel the small amount gained is only due to allowing more blower efficiency(less manifold pressure at a given airflow rate). Now go to a bigger blower or pulley it harder and the power jumps right up on either engine. Same deal, look at what a Lightning makes versus what a Cobra makes, both with M112 blowers. Pretty similar power. Sure the Cobra makes more at the wheels, but it doesn't have a 4R100 trans and a 9.75" rear either. On an engine dyno they would be close. M90 on an SC versus M90 AED on a 4.6, pretty similar power when pullied about the same there too. Your example also further illustrates this, the displacement does nothing, it's all about the blower.

That is very true. Displacement of the motor is not as important as the displacement of the blower, or the efficiency of it. The m90 AED has always, in my opinion, been too small for a 4.6, especially since the 4.6 revs high and the m90 doesnt.
 

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96 GoldBird said:
...
and I tend to agree with KD, that until someone impresses me with some actual HP numbers and track times, I'm gonna stick to the 4.6 route.. it's so much easier and cost effective... IMHO...
-mike
Well, well look who just came out of *** *** ***.
EDITED BECAUSE GB DID NOT KNOW FOR WHOEM HE WAS FIGHTING FOR WHEN HE ATTACKED THE TRANNY POST!

I dunno how many times I have told you yet you do not listen. I installed the 5.4L into my car because I wanted something with pep that I can beat the heck out of. My car takes a pounding and keeps on licking. While most of your buddies "race built" 4.6L blow up or go to the scrap yard in the sky my motor keeps on kicking. Over 100,000 miles and she still purrs. I will leave the track to crazy old couths and rich people...

I installed the 5.4L because I wanted something that can last with my lead foot. The torque is a bonus. This motor has proved the correct choice. One of these days you just may catch on that if is your car ever gets on the road. What is it 1.5 years now under the knife? I hope it lasts a few years... Anyhow, I could install four (4) 5.4L's in that time…

How did we stray from NA to SC anyhow?
 

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John, I really don't get why you pulled Dennis' name into this mix. Not a single person that I'm aware of on this site is Pro-Dennis. Least of all would be Kris or Mike. So that line was just stupid trolling.

As for the 5.4L, nobody is saying that it's a bad idea, just that it's not as good as some tout it to be. But of course people will have varying opinions as you so obviously chime in about. And that's all good. What I'm glad of is that both sides have been presented, both with objective opinions and hard numbers. Now the inquisitors can make up their own mind based on the information provided.

So get off the high horse, enjoy your torque and let us enjoy ours. Not a single person in this thread has put you down, so don't force it upon yourself.
 

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If you haven't noticed, I am bull headed! I smoked cigarettes for years. People kept telling me to quit. Not to smoke here or there. That only inspired me to smoke more. So continuously nagging me about making a new intake and upping my HP will only prove to show my stubborn side.

I did not quit until they gave up on my habit and the darn cigarette company change the taste. Yuk!
:cool:
 

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Geees! Miller, the smoke is still coming 'outa' your ears! Calm down , and play nice with the 'udder' kiddies, huh? :xpwink:
 

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Sir Will, I don't know if the the mention of the name we do not say by J.Miller was Dennis. I was tuned by The Man, and he gave me the same explanation. Dan Ulrich was there the same day and put down more power, but I had the torque. Anyway...

This is the first 5.4 thread I've seen, and I may have missed some, where some are outrightly attacking the choice of this engine. I put my engine in for likely the same reason you have a turbo, it's unique. I have never made a faster than, more power than, better choice than etc. claim about my engine or the 5.4 in general. I don't remember anyone else doing so either except Mr. Stahl. There's no high horse among my increased cubic inch bretheren. We're just trying something different like you.

Dan
 
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