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High-Mileage 4.6L Thrasher
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3,232 Posts
mylittleblackbird said:
Can you please enlighten us? I also have no idea what JL or KD do to make their car's go fast, they pull something close to 7k rpm.... Claims of little money spent... etc... I don't buy the money part but please... enlighten us.
Buy it or not-here's how my engine is built,and what's in it.

Renegade's non-PI heads with SS valves,bronze guides,portwork:
$2000

Slightly used Comp 268H cams ground on a 112 LSA:
$550 if you buy them-I traded for them,so Free for me.

New Ross flat-top pistons with rings:
$500-tccoa member

New Fed Mogul tri-metal bearings:
$75-eBay

New HO oil-pump with billet gears:
$310-pump from Dan-gears from Ken at MD

Used Manley con-rods:
$300-MD member

Stock MK8 cast crank:
$60-used

Explorer aluminum engine block:
$300

New bullitt intake manifold:
$500-MD member

Kooks:
$650

Balancing/machine work:
$200-local shop

Labor:
Free-I build my own

So-for a total of just under $5000-I've got an engine that spins to 7K with no problem,and makes the power/tq in my sig.
If you want a budget build...Hans has me beat by $1000 or more,and he's just a few HP shy of me.

If you want a 5.4L-by all means go do it-I'm not gonna stop you,nor am I going to tell you not to do it. Just don't expect excellent power output,nor good track times from it.
Also don't come back crying about it making less power and running slower than you expect....blaming the tuner/intake/weather/track,etc,etc,etc..We've heard that speech too many times already,and it's getting old.
If you want to make good power,and run quick at the track using a 5.4L-you have to use a 4V cylinder head,and it had better be built right.

JL
 

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mylittleblackbird said:
Can you please enlighten us? I also have no idea what JL or KD do to make their car's go fast, they pull something close to 7k rpm.... Claims of little money spent... etc... I don't buy the money part but please... enlighten us.
I'm not the one who used Pipito as an example.. I don't have a clue.. and neither does the guy who used him as an example, ask him... he's the one making the claims, not me... Pretty useless claims without specifics, aren't they?? Let's all run out and do what Pipito did.. Now what was that anyway?? gee I dunno, but I'm sure anyone can do it... he did...

KD and JL have both posted here and on MD, as have I, Eric Z., Hans Solo, Big Scott (Dr. Frankencougie) and many others specifically what we have done over the years to make our cars go fast.. there are no secrets..

:gotsearch

I was on this site for less than three months when GB first hit 13's.. She was pure stock and I knew nothing when I got here, and learned from JL, KD, Big Scott and others .. I asked questions and listened to the guys that did it first, and did what they did, then I talked to them about what they thought would work well and did that too, and they were right.. and if they had come up with the PI intake idea a month or so sooner, GB would have been in the 12's at SSHS 3.. (I still think JL held out on me, so he could get my cams..)

JL and KD are running very similar set ups.. high compression, NPI heads, typical bolt ons. Both have aftermarket cams.. KD has SVO heads, JL has Renegade PNP heads, high stall triple disc converters, bulletproof J-mod 4r70w trans, 4.10 or 4.30 gears (not sure which), JL has a port matched Bullitt intake, I'm not sure what KD is running, but I suspect the same or an SVO intake. Lightning MAF, SCT tune..

It's all here somewhere, just look around..

-mike
 

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Baddest N/A NPI in Canada
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TGJ said:
Psssst, Mike, check the forsale forums, KD is selling his setup.

http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=53485
Psssst.. check the date on that thread... November... I was aware he was selling it when it went up... It's been for sale, but not at a "sale" price.. He's not desperate to sell it, if someone is willing to cough up that kinda bread for it, he will.. and he ain't parting it out.. Hell, if I coul have afforded it I'da bought it and put it in the '95 and used it as a backup engine for GB.. Instead, I sold the '95 to pay for the 'vette....

Now if someone really wanted to know what KD had, that would be a good place to look.. (hint, hint)..

See no secrets..

-mike
 

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High-Mileage 4.6L Thrasher
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3,232 Posts
mylittleblackbird said:
And what is to say this pipito whatever the hell his name is didn't do the same thing for the same price?
Never said he didn't.
Actually he could probably do it for less. It makes a huge difference when you do all of your own work,own and run an engine building business,and have access to the machinery to do it all yourself.Plus you can use leftovers from customer's buildups that would normally have been tossed in the dumpster if you're after the ultimate "cheap" buildup.
Just PM Boss330 over on MD and see how much an exact duplicate of his Racecar's engine would cost you.
Better be sitting down when you read the response. :eek:
JL
 

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Johnny Langton said:
Buy it or not-here's how my engine is built,and what's in it.

Renegade's non-PI heads with SS valves,bronze guides,portwork:
$2000

Slightly used Comp 268H cams ground on a 112 LSA:
$550 if you buy them-I traded for them,so Free for me.

New Ross flat-top pistons with rings:
$500-tccoa member

New Fed Mogul tri-metal bearings:
$75-eBay

New HO oil-pump with billet gears:
$310-pump from Dan-gears from Ken at MD

Used Manley con-rods:
$300-MD member

Stock MK8 cast crank:
$60-used

Explorer aluminum engine block:
$300

New bullitt intake manifold:
$500-MD member

Kooks:
$650

Balancing/machine work:
$200-local shop

Labor:
Free-I build my own ...
JL
When it comes to the stuff you got in there I do not even come close. Oh yea, I have the FRP oil pump!!! Not the same though… :(

I can understand your pride. I am accustomed to do my own work especially the tricky stuff... Spent a little time in the machine shop too now and then... Plus, I like to document my work...

But getting back to what GB said. How many 5.4L's are there out there in MN12's? As far as I know I have the only 5.4L Cougar in the world??? To all those reading this thread listen to GB, KD, BS & JL - Do not put a 5.4L in a Cougar. There is no need for two!!! :eek:

Compare that with the number of 4.6Ls and it is rather lop sided. Sorry but you have to look at other cars… ;) The gene pool is too small... and mine are not swimming today...

The way we are going this thread will become the next edition of war and peace... :rolleyes:
 

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Moderator, Iowa Chapter Director, Uber Luber, TCCo
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96 GoldBird said:
Conversely.. why don't they put the 5.4 in Mustangs?? or Crown Vic's for that matter...

-mike

I know of a few mustang 5.4's making 390hp/385tq NA.....

-Thomas
 

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High-Mileage 4.6L Thrasher
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3,232 Posts
Thomas said:
I know of a few mustang 5.4's making 390hp/385tq NA.....

-Thomas
Again, that's a 4V, and it has unobtainable parts that cannot be bought unless you OWN a Cobra R,and then it's only for service parts.
JL
 

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Johnny Langton said:
Buy it or not-here's how my engine is built,and what's in it.

Renegade's non-PI heads with SS valves,bronze guides,portwork:
$2000

Slightly used Comp 268H cams ground on a 112 LSA:
$550 if you buy them-I traded for them,so Free for me.

New Ross flat-top pistons with rings:
$500-tccoa member

New Fed Mogul tri-metal bearings:
$75-eBay

New HO oil-pump with billet gears:
$310-pump from Dan-gears from Ken at MD

Used Manley con-rods:
$300-MD member

Stock MK8 cast crank:
$60-used

Explorer aluminum engine block:
$300

New bullitt intake manifold:
$500-MD member

Kooks:
$650

Balancing/machine work:
$200-local shop

Labor:
Free-I build my own
JL
So lets go a bit deeper.... Gaskets? Fastners? I sincerely doubt you use stock bolts.... Tuning? Or do you get that for free from Jerry? How about the pumpkin you use? Probably all aluminum. The gears? The safety equipment required for traveling at your speeds down the track? The tires, rims, rear axles, driveshaft, torque converter, fuel pump, the pretty billet fuel rails you no doubt have which are designed to support high pressure? Maybe even the suspension setup(which I know JL crafts some pieces of his own, props for that). In some cases, the hood, the light weight materials used to replace heavier stock pieces.... The list goes on and on.

Oops... forgot the transmission!
 

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Boom.
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mylittleblackbird said:
So lets go a bit deeper.... Gaskets? Fastners? I sincerely doubt you use stock bolts.... Tuning? Or do you get that for free from Jerry? How about the pumpkin you use? Probably all aluminum. The gears? The safety equipment required for traveling at your speeds down the track? The tires, rims, rear axles, driveshaft, torque converter, fuel pump, the pretty billet fuel rails you no doubt have which are designed to support high pressure? Maybe even the suspension setup(which I know JL crafts some pieces of his own, props for that). In some cases, the hood, the light weight materials used to replace heavier stock pieces.... The list goes on and on.
Wasn't this discussion about engines? :confused:
 

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Sweet T
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3,452 Posts
Palmguy said:
Wasn't this discussion about engines? :confused: :rolleyes:
THat's what I thought.

And why is it that people want the guys that have done it.. and talked about it at length to post virtual work orders for engine builds? Especially with a 4.6
 

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High-Mileage 4.6L Thrasher
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3,232 Posts
mylittleblackbird said:
So lets go a bit deeper.... Gaskets? Fastners? I sincerely doubt you use stock bolts.... Tuning? Or do you get that for free from Jerry? How about the pumpkin you use? Probably all aluminum. The gears? The safety equipment required for traveling at your speeds down the track? The tires, rims, rear axles, driveshaft, torque converter, fuel pump, the pretty billet fuel rails you no doubt have which are designed to support high pressure? Maybe even the suspension setup(which I know JL crafts some pieces of his own, props for that). In some cases, the hood, the light weight materials used to replace heavier stock pieces.... The list goes on and on.
You few idiots must think I've got some ultra-trick,one-off engine or something.
I used ARP head studs-but could have used stock TTY headbolts if I had chosen to. The used con rods had ARP bolts in them. Tuning-I work that out with good friends.
The FRPP pumpkin is the same one that I've had in the car for about 3 years now.
Safety equipment-until you run an 11.49 all that's required is a DS safety loop(made my own),and a helmet-same stuff you 5.4L guys will have to use at the track.
I use Hoosier DOT QTP's for the track,and you guys can use those if you wish-traction issues are an excuse.
STOCK TBird wheels for those QTP's-the 15" fan wheels that most guys throw away.
STOCK rear axles-they're the originals with almost 250K miles on them now.
The driveshaft is a Dynotech MMC shaft-same DS that the majority of the members here have.
The torque converter was a Morris 3500 rpm cheapie from our "favorite vendor".It was replaced when the trans was rebuilt with a MD OWC,etc a long time ago.I've got a USED PI multi-disk now.
Fuel pump is a 255lph pump that replaced the stock pump at 150K miles since I had the tank down for the DS install.
STOCK fuel rails.
STOCK suspension with Bilstein shocks,and the majority of the parts have close to 250K miles on them.
STOCK Body panels-ALL of them.
Car weighs 3760 lbs.
You few idiots also act like I NEVER drive this car.
I drive it regularly-it is NOT a trailered track machine.
I also tow with the car.
Pic of when I went on a trip up to Colorado from here(1200 miles one way) when the car was stock:

2 years ago,I towed a camper up to Dallas from here(220 miles one way) for FFW, unhitched the car, swapped rear tires, raced it all weekend, swapped rear tires back, and towed that camper back home after the races,and I had myself and 2 other adults in the car with all of our necessities in the car for that entire weekend.
Yes, lets go on and on...I like this game. I really like how it went from ENGINE comparisons to entire car and chassis now. Same thing everytime this topic is discussed.
JL
 

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Moderator, Iowa Chapter Director, Uber Luber, TCCo
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true it is 4v I forgot about that, but I swear I heard they're selling the parts to the public now.
 

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mylittleblackbird, you are questioning JL as if you are a newbie to this forum. JL has over a thousand posts and you cannot tell me that you have not seen anyone of them. Most of his posts also mentions the combo that he is using. You go in the video forum you can even see a clip of his car, and to make things even better his car also has the heavier leather interior.
 

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Like Titles Matter
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mylittleblackbird said:
And what is to say this pipito whatever the hell his name is didn't do the same thing for the same price?
LOL Al's car has Cobra R heads on it. It also has an HCI 4.6 intake worked over heavily for the 5.4. Al is one hell of a welder, I had him weld up the ports in a Roush 4.6 intake to change them to NPI ports and you can't even tell it has been welded on. That's the kind of skills he needs to put that intake together for that engine. You did know the only bolt on intake for a Cobra R/Ford GT head is either a Cobra R or Ford GT intake right? The intake ports are completely different than any other 4V. As good as Al is don't even begin to think there is anything budget about that combination, nothing about it is. And that's the old one which is now sold, the new combo takes things way further. And again, that is a 4V after all, not relevant to the original discussion. No more than my Lightning is. It's about the NA 5.4 2V and how they make less power and run slower than an NA 4.6 2V. Yes my eninge is for sale, yes I truthfully listed everything that is in it. No, it isn't cheap. Yes I shift it at 6800, how is this a big deal that is only about 600 more RPM than I shifted a stock PI engine at. It also happens to be way overbuilt for NA usage, it was built with the possibility of nitrous in mind. If it didn't have the heavy H beam rods, Cobra crank, and high volume oil pump in it, it would make more power than it does now.
 

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you guys are funny, you guys should hold back a little when you talk. i know it is tough, i sell mufflers to hondas every day i have to bite my tounge and not insulte them when they ask which rice muffler for there car is not so ricy. this is the only down side to working for a large exhaust manufacturing company.

since every one else is throwing in what they want to say so am i. i think a new 3v v10 is the best motor for a crown vic. i also want to put a 5.4 4v in my mark but am also torn between a 4.6 with two little turbo's. i also think that board members should mod there car how they want. this is for better or worse, and it is not my place to tell them they are messing up there car. the best way to do this with out being a jerk is by saying hey cool nice pic. LOL.
 

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KD, No it is about this:

MadGoat said:
I read on the tech's about the 5.4 swap... Im lookin for a engine to buy and slowly build up while my 4.6 slowly dies. So I saw this about the 5.4 and it seems really (Relatively) easy...

Is there a hiden trick somewhere? I would love to have some more torque to this thing.

also, if I were to look for a used 5.4 what car would be the best to look for? F150? Navigator? Lightening? <------(ok im joking)


MG :D
You idiots!! Now you have me saying it. You idiots, have manipulated this thread into some contest of who, what where is faster and better. Everybody has heard the song before. It is the broken record that has been going on for years. :mad:

Yea, yea yea we all could make them faster. When I built my car with my very own hands I was driving 200+ miles a week across two states every weekend. Sometimes through the snow! I did it for years and that was the basis for the design. Back in 2k it was almost state of the art. But… ;)

None of this junk is relevant to the discussion. I think KD should have started his own thread then he could have picked the topic of discussion he prefers. Guys, give it a rest… my head hurts!

Note: My football team stinks like Dallas during a drought and I am in a bad mood. Hopefully, I did not insult anyone too much. If I did and you are a patriots fan. Too bad. Otherwise too bad! I am J.Miller and that is my opinion.
 

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Blk mk8; In order to understand this , "you need to read between the lines", as there are adgendas and hiddenn adgendas here. :xpwink: What started out as a simple response to someone asking a question turned into a 'bash the 5.4 guys crusade'... Altho' I initally responded with a few comments that in no way put the 5.4 in a golden halo a certain Clique, or as I preferr to call it , a " Unholy Cabal of naysayers and critics" have flocked here to pounce on all the guys whom are trying to do better with their big engined cars.... And being told ''NO WAY!!!" well, a few of those same people , one on one have given me some pretty good advice on occasion, but as a group, their adgenda is to shut us up, beat us down , and suppress any independent thinking.. (What are they afraid of??)I am still looking at alternatives to make my bird better, and I have learned a few profound things on my own , that fly in in opposition to conventional wisdom, however there are those that cant stand anything contrary to their form of hot rodding.... You cannot argue with success , look at JL and KD's timeslips and dyno graphs, and they should rightfully be proud and happy, but to just crap on everyone elses ideas, and efforts smacks highly of mean spiritedness and arrogance .... Ya I said that too ...

Miller; your car is pretty , and you have worked long and hard to make it your special ride, youre so fussy that it makes me puke sometimes :zpuke: (My engine bay looks like the black hole of calcutta by comparison)... thats ok, but you need to take it to the track, and wring her out a few times to take a more analytical look at it and get things sorted out a bit more before you fight the clique, without a significant comparison, as your car is different, and I would like to see what all that N/A tq will do... If you are bashful, I'll run it for you, as I'm not 65 yet, and still have a few passes left in me.

Now as for all the rest of you, think what you will , I have my opinions, and every once in a while I let them out, but for the most part , I live in my own little world, but thats ok, they know me there :xpwink:
 
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