TCCoA Forums banner

141 - 160 of 255 Posts

·
Like Titles Matter
Joined
·
2,129 Posts
J.Miller said:
Mod to mod vs a 4.6L I have proved that my HP is the same and I have more torque.

Actually Miller, that was the very first comment in this thread about the 5.4 power vs the 4.6 and YOU made it. Don't try and push this off on me making this thread about that, YOU did it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
789 Posts
" Unholy Cabal of naysayers and critics" hahah, that's funny. So funny.

We need to end this thread.

To sum it up:
1) 5.4 costs more than a 4.6 to build
2) Those who did the 5.4 like it
3) The 5.4 isn't the best choice for racing, but good for a daily driver.
4) The 4.6 has more available parts and can make more power for less money.
5) The 5.4 will spark conversation with guys at any parts store, the 4.6 won't unless you have your time written on the window.
6) Apples and oranges
7) Some people need to seek therapy or at least find a good church

Us 5.4 folks haven't made significant changes to our engines, besides Jake, since we put them in years ago. We can't just put on the new intake or headers. They don't fit or exist. Since I put my engine in, I've changed spark plugs. That's it. Still runs strong. Still spins the tires at 1500 rpms if I want and even if I don't.

Stop bickering. There's different opinions. Nobody's right. Just different. KD and JL like and are proud of their setups, so are JMiller, Capt Jake and I. I don't plan to race them but wouldn't mind embarasing some bowties or civics with them.

Dan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,577 Posts
The thread may end, but the debate will continue as long as certain people have SCT chips on their shoulders.. ;)

Get over it...

:D

-mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,598 Posts
Mike?..... This is about chips now? I thought the adgenda would change ;p
 

·
Baddest N/A NPI in Canada
Joined
·
2,116 Posts
mylittleblackbird said:
So lets go a bit deeper.... Gaskets? Fastners? I sincerely doubt you use stock bolts.... Tuning? Or do you get that for free from Jerry? How about the pumpkin you use? Probably all aluminum. The gears? The safety equipment required for traveling at your speeds down the track? The tires, rims, rear axles, driveshaft, torque converter, fuel pump, the pretty billet fuel rails you no doubt have which are designed to support high pressure? Maybe even the suspension setup(which I know JL crafts some pieces of his own, props for that). In some cases, the hood, the light weight materials used to replace heavier stock pieces.... The list goes on and on.

Oops... forgot the transmission!
Why the in the world would you bring this up? Everyone knows that it is JL's and KD's Spark plugs and the gap of them that allow them to make the power they do and times at the track. :tongue: I am being sarcastic, just shaking my head in awe that you would even bring this up.

Since you are convinced that the 5.4 is better, copy JL's or KD's setup but use a 5.4 and see how it does. Plain and simple solution. Since the Bullitt and SVO intakes are aluminum. I am sure you could get someone to cut and extend the runners to fit a 5.4.

For JMiller, since KD's and JL's build were brought into this and everyone sees what they have. Why don't you post your entire engine setup in this thread like was done with KD's and JL's and perhaps we will have somewhere the data of an equivalent 4.6 and compare. This should end the debate right there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
789 Posts
Why don't you post your entire engine setup in this thread like was done with KD's and JL's and perhaps we will have somewhere the data of an equivalent 4.6 and compare
I'll do it.
5.4 block from 99 expedition (<9000 miles on it)
Engine was bored .20 over, decked and polished
Forged crank (houston performance)
High vol oil pump
High vol water pump
Ported and polished PI heads with 3 angle valve job
One piece lightning cams, not pressed on lobes
80mm MAF with dual cone filter housed in lower front area.
Forged JE flat top pistons
Chrome moly rings
Forged Manley rods
Copper head gaskets
ARP Main studs
ARP Head Studs
ARP intake bolts
Stock 4.6 exhaust manifolds
Steeda Underdrives
high flow cats
2.5" dual in out magnaflow muffler with built in x-over dumped behind tranny
Good bearings, don't remember manufacturer
Billet -6 fuel rails
42lb injectors (ford racing I think, green)
cut, welded, cut, welded, welded, welded, JB welded '95 4.6 intake
Aeromotive 1000HP fuel pump with -10 lines and -10Return
Aeromotive -10 Fuel Pressure Regulator with -8 outlet
Aermotive -10 fuel filter
Triangle Engineering fuel cell in trunk
Stock rebuilt torque converter (not my fault, getting a drtyd0g one soon)
Jmodded and then some tranny
Trac-loc pumpking from cobra (aluminum) with 3.27's
Raxles half shafts (not installed)
Addco 1 1/4" swaybar (front installed not rear)
Eibachs with tokico shocks/struts
Airbags in rear (cheap bike pump to fill type, for traction)
18" CEC type 169 wheels with 245/40/18 front and 255/45/18 rear
96-97 cobra R hood with 96-97 headlights and clear corners
Tuned by "the man" while driving in town and on a dyno in hot air. 222rwhp/333rwtq with 12:1 AF

There's more but I can't think of it. I also misspelled a couple things.

Please look at this setup and honestly try to tell me that better intake/exhaust won't make a big difference? KD and others, I respect your ability to make a 4.6 damn fast. Please try it with a stock 95 4.6 intake and stock exhaust manifolds. Let me know what happens. I can't get a 5.4 "bullit" intake from MD or a ported 5.4 SVO intake and kooks don't fit. It's like sucking air through a straw and crapping it out through a kazoo.

My setup is extreme yes, but I'm limited by intake and exhaust. It was built for a big blower or nitrous or turbo (piston swap needed), but I'm not going to try with a friggin 95 4.6 intake and stock exhaust manifolds.

Dan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,577 Posts
Leland Jacobson said:
Mike?..... This is about chips now?
Just the ones on your collective shoulders...

lighten up dude.. it was a joke..

-mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,577 Posts
gecko2424 said:
Please look at this setup and honestly try to tell me that better intake/exhaust won't make a big difference?

I can't get a 5.4 "bullit" intake from MD or a ported 5.4 SVO intake and kooks don't fit. It's like sucking air through a straw and crapping it out through a kazoo.

My setup is extreme yes, but I'm limited by intake and exhaust.

Dan
No *****??

Of course you knew going in that there were no intakes or headers available, 'cause you (we all) have heard that song many times before ... and it is one of the reasons given for the difficulty in making power with the 5.4, along with some others.. way back... I'm not sure why it keeps getting mentioned like somehow it is a legitamate excuse for the problem of getting power with the 5.4. It's not a surprise, it was an anticipated problem with no solution, so to keep pointing at it and saying... "well if we had an intake and exhaust to use..."... you didnt' then, you don't now, and you maybe never will...

Just a quick glance tells me your engine set up is similar to what mine and JL's were N/A a while back. Except for the fuel delivery system which is over kill for you now (smaller injctors might be more efficient, but I'm sure Jerry got the most he could with them), and of course JL and I had the stock '96 NPI intake which is marginally better than the '95.. and we had PI cams -- I have no idea they stack up lift/duration wise against the lightning cams. And of course we had Kooks headers. I don't know who did your heads, Jim O'Neill did ours, and not all PNP jobs are created equal either.

JL had a small compression bump with a Mark/Cobra bottom end, I was stock C/R.. you didn't post what C/R you are running....

Our internals were not forged at that time, so you may have an internal weight disadvantage there as well, but the 5.4 is much heavier than the 4.6, and you knew you'd have that to overcome as well..

You're at 222rwhp, which is pretty respectable.. JL was around 232-235rwhp I was right at 222rwhp at that time. Both of us had J-tunes.

My TQ was 289ft-lbs, Johnny was at 301... so you got us there for sure, but we concede that..

Here's my dyno sheet:




Here's JL's:




If you are at 12:1 AF, you're a bit fatter than we were.


Now if someone is interested in track times, both JL and I were comfortably in the 13's at that point, I dunno what you are running, but I suspect the extra weight of the 5.4 slows you down some.. and the peak power is at a different RPM which may affect track times also.

Now, aftermarked cams (Comps) took me well over 260rwhp with everything else the same.. I don't know if they would have the same effect on you...

So, more money, less intake/exhaust options, more weight, slower times, roughly the same HP as the 4.6 (assuming your C/R is the same as mine was), pretty much sums up the advantages of doing the 5.4 swap. Well you have about 40ft-lbs more TQ, so if you want to tow a house or something, or lose traction and chirp second and third, you're all set, but the TQ doesn't seem to translate to any advantage for the normal driver or racer.

And yes you have the "unusual" factor going for you .. mostly 'cause not too many people will look at the "advantages" of putting a 5.4, and do it anyway... Other than of the novelty... why would they??

Maybe I'm missing something ...

-mike
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,009 Posts
96 GoldBird said:
No *****??
... but the 5.4 is much heavier than the 4.6, and you knew you'd have that to overcome as well...

You're at 222rwhp, which is pretty respectable.. JL was around 232-235rwhp I was right at 222rwhp at that time. Both of us had J-tunes.

My TQ was 289ft-lbs, Johnny was at 301... so you got us there for sure, but we concede that..

...but I suspect the extra weight of the 5.4 slows you down some.. and the peak power is at a different RPM which may affect track times also...

So, more money, less intake/exhaust options, more weight, slower times, roughly the same HP as the 4.6 (assuming your C/R is the same as mine was), pretty much sums up the advantages of doing the 5.4 swap...

Maybe I'm missing something ...

-mike
With all due respect. His motor weighs 450 Pounds an Aluminum 4.6L weights about 356 Pounds. That is 94 pounds. Now Lelamb weighs say 320 # and say you weigh 160 pounds. That will get you 254 Pounds.

If we put LJ in your car it just may be slower???? :eek:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
789 Posts
Mike, I am not complaining about my lack of options. I'm just waiting till I have some before I spend any more money. Capt Jake didn't want to wait and I'm impressed with his ride. Your info above pretty much proved our claims with similar HP numbers to us with similar setups. We have the TQ advantage which overcomes the weight difference. You can rev higher, but we have more TQ for longer. I think if you had raced me when you had 222hp, we'd have been almost identical.

I've never taken my car to the track. It's not a race car. When I'm done with it, I'll take it to the track to shut some people up. This is my "want to drive fast, make some noise, look good, comfortable car." It does that just fine without a timeslip but is still faster than most NA 2v 4.6's. And that makes up the majority of the population. Some are faster, but I'll never lose sleep over that.

Dan
 

·
Baddest N/A NPI in Canada
Joined
·
2,116 Posts
gecko2424 said:
Mike, I am not complaining about my lack of options. I'm just waiting till I have some before I spend any more money. Capt Jake didn't want to wait and I'm impressed with his ride. Your info above pretty much proved our claims with similar HP numbers to us with similar setups. We have the TQ advantage which overcomes the weight difference. You can rev higher, but we have more TQ for longer. I think if you had raced me when you had 222hp, we'd have been almost identical.

I've never taken my car to the track. It's not a race car. When I'm done with it, I'll take it to the track to shut some people up. This is my "want to drive fast, make some noise, look good, comfortable car." It does that just fine without a timeslip but is still faster than most NA 2v 4.6's. And that makes up the majority of the population. Some are faster, but I'll never lose sleep over that.

Dan

Dan there are things there in your setup I don't think Mike saw.

I know for a fact JL or Mike did not run +.20 overbore on their setups. You also have a compression advantage, I don't remember what Flat tops and PI heads run for compression but it is greater than what either of them had. If it true what Mike said about JL's old setup at that time, then it is fair to compare JL's setup to yours instead of his and you are 10HP short and 22 greater on torque.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,577 Posts
JM - I'm 230# (I haven't been 160# since Jr. High), but again, the 90 pound difference between engines was known obstacle that would have to be overcome in order for the 5.4 to out-perform the 4.6.. this is not a surprise or an excuse... it was one of the reasons given that would make the 5.4 less likely to outperform the 4.6.. and it has proved true, just as the lack of intake choices, inadaquate flowing heads for the additional cylinder size, lack of exhaust options, etc. were known obstacles.. these were all known drawbacks to be overcome when compared to the 4.6... it would seem that merely the additional displacement of the 5.4 does not overcome them in terms of overall performance.. and don't tell me about how your 5.4's puts up with your heavy foot... JL's 4.6 went well over 200,000 miles with his heavy foot... my '96 had 140,000 when it was turning 13's with a bogus slushbox for a transmission and a TC that wouldn't lock up.. and perfectly streetable to boot.


Dan - do you know of any 5.4's with 222rwhp and all that extra TQ, running in the 13's?? or are we speculating again?? and again you were not specific aobut your Compression Ratio.. I suspect it was higher than 9:1, and probably higher than JL's at the time as well... Ported PI heads vs. Ported NPI's probably did not provide any better flow, since it has been shown that Jim's ported NPI's flow better across the board.. but there is the matter of compression ratio.. if it is higher than mine was, the we're comparing apples to oranges, because a full point of CR is huge.. really huge..

-mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
49 Posts
You people!

Well if the intake is the problem, then we need to do something about it!

I own a Machine shop with plenty of tools and I'm sure with some brain storming we can come up with some thing that works well!
 

·
Baddest N/A NPI in Canada
Joined
·
2,116 Posts
You guys can hack up a 95 intake and make it work, Why can't you hack up a Bullitt or SVO?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,977 Posts
TGJ said:
You guys can hack up a 95 intake and make it work, Why can't you hack up a Bullitt or SVO?
Ok, I have really, really wanted to stay out of this but thats just too funny. People throw away 94/95 intakes. I have one and I threaten Alan that I am going to bring it to his place and leave it fairly often. It's right on par with a 94/95 4R70W in an MN12. Lots of people have them but nobody really wants them.
Find me one person anywhere who is willing to throw away a Bullit or SVO intake.
 

·
Baddest N/A NPI in Canada
Joined
·
2,116 Posts
There is nothing preventing these guys from buying one new or used and trying it. They complain about not having any intake options, is there some outlying reason as to why they can't or won't try one of these?
 

·
High-Mileage 4.6L Thrasher
Joined
·
3,232 Posts
There are commercially available intake adapters to install a PI intake(or a bullitt) on a 5.4L.
Just check around-they're available.
JL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
49 Posts
The PI is the cheapest best option, but still, it even sucks for high flow for a 4.6l.
Being that, it would most sertainly suck for a 5.4l.
 

·
Like Titles Matter
Joined
·
2,129 Posts
gecko2424 said:
Please look at this setup and honestly try to tell me that better intake/exhaust won't make a big difference? KD and others, I respect your ability to make a 4.6 damn fast. Please try it with a stock 95 4.6 intake and stock exhaust manifolds. Let me know what happens. I can't get a 5.4 "bullit" intake from MD or a ported 5.4 SVO intake and kooks don't fit. It's like sucking air through a straw and crapping it out through a kazoo.
Dan for what it's worth a friend of mine here has a 96 Cougar. We did the following:

stock PI cams
stock PI plastic intake, no port matching
stock Mustang inlet tube/airbox with paper filter
80MM MAF
tuned by me
3.73 gear which should hurt power on the dyno a bit

This is the red line in this graph, the blue one is stock other than my tuning.


Then with no changes other than replacing the PI intake with a used SVO blower kit, and a retune by me, the car did what you see with the red line here, the blue one is the PI cams/intake pull for reference.


So this car has stock unported exhaust manifolds too. I agree they aren't ideal, however that can't be all that bad to a point, or I wouldn't get these results from a car he has no more than $5k total in, and that even includes maintenance items like brake pads and rotors he had to buy for it. I want to bring that part up for the people who want to continually imply I spend so much money to make power. Yes my motor got expensive, it has pretty much the best of everything you can buy for a 4.6. But, I think this shows I do know how to make power without doing that.

This Cougar also doesn't have nearly a loose enough torque converter but still in 90 degree heat it went 14.18 NA and 13.09 blown. Real results on both the dyno and the track, for cheap.
 
141 - 160 of 255 Posts
Top