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One more thing, my car does have an iron block, plus heavy internals, the heavy SVO intake, and 3" dual exhaust which is quite heavy. Yes it has a glass hood, not lightweight race fiberglass, but I'm sure it is a bit lighter than a stock hood. The weldwheels take a bit of weight off, and the bigger brakes put a bit back on. It has a little light battery, and no front swaybar. I am 250lbs. It goes across the scale(racetrack scales, not some truck scale which is inaccurate at weights this light) at 3815 with driver and very little fuel in it. Sure, not as heavy as some here, but no flyweight at all.
 

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Dan, you said you had some spark knock problems right? Well I think I know why after reading your post about what you have. With a flat top piston, the .020 overbore, figuring the piston is 3MM down in the bore at TDC like a production 5.4, .030 compressed gasket thickness, and 43cc chambers, you're sitting about at 11.2 to 1 compression. That's more than mine, and I have to back the tune off a bit on pump gas.
 

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Gee whiz... with 11.2 CR I bet GB would have had more than 222/189.. Whaddya think??

Now, Eric Z pulled right around 250rwhp with unported PI heads, PI intake, PI cams and bolt ons in a 4.6. I think he had the stock exhaust at the time, but I'm not sure about that... he too was running comfortably in the 13's.. and that's on the cheap

Hmmmmmmmm...

-mike
 

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We always guessed about 11:1, never did the math though. Yes, I could make more power, but Jerry backed the timing way off on my tune. I've never put in race gas, but I can pull a switch which Jerry tuned to add a good amount of timing back. If I ever take it to a track, I'll do it.

KD, that cougar made 216 with similar intake/exhaust to mine. If the CR were bumped and the timing backed off to compensate, I think it would be very close to me. A stock 4.6 with good intake/exhaust and bolt-ons can get 250 or more at the wheels. Put a '95 tbird intake on a PI mustang engine and it likely won't be any where near that. You added a conservative blower and got 288HP, Capt Jake with 5# boost gets just under 300. I think that with parts (int/exh) being somewhat equal, their numbers are quite comparable. You got just over 300 from an NA 2V 4.6. Impressive. HPS is working on a low profile intake for the 5.4 and headers can be fabricated. It will take some time to get those, and money of course. I'll do that and maybe plop in some better cams/springs. At that point we'll really see if the 5.4 can make power. If I'm not at least close to you, the debate will be over. If I am close to you, the debate will be over. Until I've made those changes, there really isn't anything to compare.

Dan
 

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Dan, I appreciate your and Kris' willingness to discuss this as adults rather than the banter we've seen previously in this thread. This is the kind of stuff we need. The other just serves to lower our collective IQ's.
 

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Discussion Starter #166
Sir William said:
Dan, I appreciate your and Kris' willingness to discuss this as adults rather than the banter we've seen previously in this thread. This is the kind of stuff we need. The other just serves to lower our collective IQ's.

I agree, although entertaining.... its just a knock down drag on contest.


MG

(i am learning a lot though) :D
 

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gecko2424 said:
KD, that cougar made 216 with similar intake/exhaust to mine. If the CR were bumped and the timing backed off to compensate, I think it would be very close to me.
That Couger had UNPORTED NPI heads and stock pistons w/o a .020 overbore...

You've got PORTED PI heads with flat top pistons with a .020 overbore.. so that is apples to oranges.

The PI heads give you a bump in CR and the flat tops give you another, so KD's estimate is probably more accurate.. (closer to 11:2than 11:1) [edited]

Your set up is way closer to JL's (he had the OEM NPI intake, not the Bullitt at the time), except you have more CR than he had, and he didn't have a .020 overbore.. and you are around 13rwhp LESS. You got what I got, and I was about 2 points less compression and no over-bore... the Kooks may have been good for a little, but honestly at that power level N/A the effect of headers is minimal...

Does anyone know the differences between the OEM PI cams and the OEM Lightning cams?? JL and I had the PI's... Dan has the Lightning cams... what's that worth?? if any...


So far what you have posted indicates that mod for mod, the 5.4 gains less than the 4.6 and is 100 lbs heavier..

If you want to talk about blown applications.. don't compare Lelamb's to Chris' Couger, thay are totally different (Leland has Comp cams among other stuff)... go back to my post where I stated that equally set up full bore KB blown 4.6's and 5.4's produce THE SAME 650rwhp... Now these cars were built and set up by the identical people -- apples to apples -- there was no HP advantage to the 5.4.. and it is still 100# heavier...

I have nothing against swapping the 5.4 in.. like I said before.. pushing the envelope and doing new things is what got us to where we are now... but as was pointed out years ago and recently in my earlier post by my engine builder friend, the 5.4 has certain inherrent weaknesses that the extra displacement alone does not overcome, and, BASED ON CURRENT EXPERIENCE, NOT SPECULATION, provides poorer OVERALL track and street performance.

Maybe someday, that will change, but that is the current state of technology.

You have the best set up N/A 5.4 in an MN12 that I have heard about, with, in some respects, more potential for power than JL, Eric Z. and Hans Solo, and you fall way short of what they got out of their 4.6... You got what I got, and I had way less potential (CR alone).

and that is as close to apples to apples as we can get, until either somone with a 5.4 matches EXACTLY what JL did, or two guys, a 4.6 and a 5.4, build two cars by the same builder equally...

My engine builder friend says:

"Find several guys willing to have the same combo built, ie; same heads, same CR, common intakes, and build 5 engines: a 4.6, a 5.0 stroker, a 5.0 big bore, a 324 big bore stroker, and a 5.4. I'll build them all so there is no arguing one builder versus another. I'm also not biased so I wouldn't be sand bagging for one combo versus another. Then run a shoot-out on the dyno..... Problem is everyone will sit in the fence and throw stones but no one (from the peanut gallery) is willing to put their money where their mouth is and "try" something
In other words, until someone with a 5.4 matches what's been done with the 4.6, it's all just talk..

-mike
 

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Lightning cams are the same as any other PI cam.

I rechecked the math on Dan's compression, I still come up with 11.2, not 12. There can be some variance of course, he said he had his block decked so the piston may not be down as much as a production 5.4, then the aftermarket piston itself may raise or lower the deck clearance a bit depending on its dimensions. But I wouldn't expect any of that to be a significant amount unless it was something like dropping the pin bore 3mm to get rid of all the stock clearance, and I don't think it is anything like that, compression would be way up there then.

And yes the Cougar had stock unported NPI heads. Until the stock PI cams and intake were installed it had never had so much as a valve cover off. Those 2 items were the only non stock engine parts on it. The SVO blower makes 3. It doesn't even have a larger throttle body or any minor items of that nature.
 

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Ooops.. stand corrected on the CR.. meant closer to 11.2 than 11.1 ... 12:1 would be a bit high...

:xpshame:

-mike
 

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Mike, I think my CR is a hindrance more than a benefit. I have to pull the timing way back to stop detonation. I think I'd make more power with lower compression and advanced timing. If I used the fuel that would allow the same timing as JL, the 13 HP difference would likely be made up easily. KD would you agree?

Beyond that, your arguing a mute point that needs no further discussion.

My OPINION is that my intake/exhaust negate any benefit of my ported heads and overbore and that true comparisons can't be made until they are changed. If I can't match KD's power at that point. Then the conversation is over.

KD, I know all data says the cams are identical. Back in 2000, Dan Newman told me they had different part numbers for the lightning but he didn't know the difference. I had extra cash and there were no aftermarket ones available so I sprung for them. When they arrived I compared them to the ones I pulled from the engine. The stock ones had pressed on lobes, the lightning ones did not. Other than that, I couldn't tell a difference at a glance. They ARE different, but I don't know if the difference was anything but the construction. They're in there though so I can't take a picture. i will some day though.

Dan
 

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By the way, I have a 255lph pump, stock fuel lines, smaller regulator/filter and stock tank in my garage. When I can get a set of tank straps it's goinig back on the car. I don't need a 1000+ HP setup for fuel, so that is getting changed.

Dan
 

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gecko2424 said:
My OPINION is that my intake/exhaust negate any benefit of my ported heads and overbore and that true comparisons can't be made until they are changed. If I can't match KD's power at that point. Then the conversation is over.

Dan
Again you are arguing something that is and was a given going in, and making our point.. which is

As it stands now, under the present technology available, the 5.4 cannot be modified to outperform the 4.6. It cannot break even and has a 100# weight disadvantage.

Whining that there are no good intake/exhaust options, and stating that because of the 5.4's extra displacement that is more of a handicap on the 5.4 than on the 4.6 is exactly why the 5.4 is a poorer choice for better performance.. AT THIS TIME... you are making our point very well, thank you.

Now as far as the higher compression being a handicap... that would mean that the compression bump from installing PI heads on an NPI bottom will hurt performance because of the need for pulling timing.. We all know that is bogus because the one point boost is exactly what makes the PI headed birds more power. Or that the extra compression that JL had over me was a disadvantage because he had to pull timing... huh??.. the extra compression is exactly what gave him the 13 horses more. Seems like the man could give you some advantage for the bump in compression, but I defer to KD on that on.

But saying IF I had more timing .. such and such.. is just more speculation with no backup data... kinda like:

If we had a better intake
If we had a better exhaust
If the engine were lighter
If the valves weren't shrouded
If... ad infinitum...

WHEN an equally moded 5.4 makes the same or more power N/A than what I, or JL, or KD, or Eric Z., or Big Scott, or Hans Solo, or ... ad infinitum... have made or are making.... without the "only ifs", THEN I would like to see the data.

until then it is wishful thinking and speculation.. IMHO
 

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gecko2424 said:
Mike, I think my CR is a hindrance more than a benefit. I have to pull the timing way back to stop detonation. I think I'd make more power with lower compression and advanced timing. If I used the fuel that would allow the same timing as JL, the 13 HP difference would likely be made up easily. KD would you agree?

Beyond that, your arguing a mute point that needs no further discussion.

My OPINION is that my intake/exhaust negate any benefit of my ported heads and overbore and that true comparisons can't be made until they are changed. If I can't match KD's power at that point. Then the conversation is over.

KD, I know all data says the cams are identical. Back in 2000, Dan Newman told me they had different part numbers for the lightning but he didn't know the difference. I had extra cash and there were no aftermarket ones available so I sprung for them. When they arrived I compared them to the ones I pulled from the engine. The stock ones had pressed on lobes, the lightning ones did not. Other than that, I couldn't tell a difference at a glance. They ARE different, but I don't know if the difference was anything but the construction. They're in there though so I can't take a picture. i will some day though.

Dan
Well sort of Dan, you'll never run as much timing as he does since the PI head is a faster burn chamber. The SVO is even slower so he'll never run what I do either. But yes there is some merit to the concept you're talking about. This is why I tune/race mine on race gas, then use the octane pin to remove some timing for street duty.

I've got an 01 Lightning and the cams in it have the same numbers on them as some other Windsor PI cams I had. They also had pressed on lobes just the same. I have never seen any production Ford cam that didn't have pressed lobes, only aftermarket.
 

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kdanner said:
I've got an 01 Lightning and the cams in it have the same numbers on them as some other Windsor PI cams I had. They also had pressed on lobes just the same. I have never seen any production Ford cam that didn't have pressed lobes, only aftermarket.
I agree,I've never seen a production cam that wasn't of tubular construction with pressed on lobes.
Since I've got a degree wheel setup on mine right now,and several sets of cams here....I'm gonna measure the actual specs of non-PI and PI cams for everybody to see.
JL
 

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mylittleblackbird said:
Really quick, whats a cast iron 4.6 bare block(main caps and bolts included) weigh in at? This is an apples to apples comparrison. No BS involved on my part.
I've got a bare block in the shop,and I'll go weigh it in a bit.
If I remember correctly,it's ~160 lbs.
JL
 

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So we can now establish the fact that block for block, in a cast vs. cast (apples to apples) comparrison, the block difference is ~25lbs. Now the one thing that really REALLY weighs a boatload is the stock forged crank. I don't have the numbers on it but I'm guesstimating it's ~50lbs+ That extra weight can be overcome because of the fact that light weight cranks are available. So I guess I don't see where the 100lbs difference came in to play... You are looking at maybe 50lbs difference... max... but probably not that much. Now if Mike was comparing an aluminum 4.6 block to a cast iron 5.4 block, I can see a drastic weight difference, but that is the "apples to oranges" analogy again. I will weigh out my crank before I get it ground down and give everyone actual figures on the stocker crank. Let me know what you find out on the block JL.
 

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TGJ said:
You guys can hack up a 95 intake and make it work, Why can't you hack up a Bullitt or SVO?
Dan and I did our mods around the same time. Then, only the 95 intake was a viable option. The other two were expensive. I hacked mine and Dan had someone do it for him. To do it right you should tack the intake while it is on the motor. An option I no longer have. Besides we (I) are cheap. :D

Since then Mark Phillips took apart a Bullit intake and bonded it back together with JB weld... or so he claims. I am sure there is some aluminum welding on that intake. He says "it used to completely run out of air with the truck intake by 5,000 rpm, Now it never runs out of air..".

But he never got a dyno. Apparently the used 5.4L motor he threw in had engine problems that were not noticed until after the install and then he had an accident. He now drives it as a beater car.

The runners look great for the application. But it did not fit under his hood and the connector to the lower plenum should be machined and then welded. Finally the lower plenum looks a little too small for a 5.4L. It should be enlarged.

 
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