[Sexy jesus]

Hello I have a 97t bird lemons endurance race car. Just looking for someone local who knows these things. Maybe has some parts to sell. I'm a bmw mechanic. And this isn't a bmw.

 

[RalphP]

Local to ... where? You didn't say.

Local to The Solar System - sure, there's at least two Lemons racers here that I remember (S4Gunn and another that I don't remember offhand). Although S4Gunn is rocking a Gen1 with 5.0HO in it, IIRC.

But here's a big hint for free - Find the Factory Service Manual and the Electrical Vacuum Troubleshooting Manual for your year TBird. (They were printed by Helm Inc. back when, and Helm sometimes has reprints in stock; you can also find them on Ebay.) You may be pleasantly surprised at how, with those, your basic mechanical training will handle what you need. If you ARE a mechanic, anyway ...

RwP

 

[MaddMartigan]

Hello I have a 97t bird lemons endurance race car. Just looking for someone local who knows these things. Maybe has some parts to sell. I'm a bmw mechanic. And this isn't a bmw.

S4Gunn and MadMikeyL are both Lemons guys.

Where are you located?

 

[MadMikeyL]

S4Gunn and myself are the 2 lemons racers on the site. ClintD was also on my lemons team and he and I built the car that we raced. That car has since been dismantled and junked, and I got out of the lemons racing, except that S4Gunn invited me out to CA to drive his car last time he ran.

As for the MN12 not being a BMW, I think you will quickly find that is a good thing! If you want to be competitive with the car, you will have to get a little cheaty, but it can definitely be done under the radar. First, you need to convert to a manual transmission, either with a T45 or a TR3650. The T45 swap is cheaper but requires more fabrication, where the TR3650 swap is a direct bolt-in swap, but is more expensive. Also look into the Mustang hub swap so you can run Mustang wheels (preferably 17x9’s) and 13” cobra brakes. As for getting more power, a PI headswap will get you another 60hp or so while looking bone stock, and if you are willing to run 100 octane racing fuel, you can get a MarkVIII bottom end, and swap PI heads onto it, which will not only save about 75lbs off the nose of the car due to the MarkVIII’s aluminum engine block, but will also raise the compression ratio up to about 12:1, giving you a nice power bump over even the PI headswap. Again, none of this will look different from stock to anyone who doesn’t know Ford 4.6s very well.

 

[Thunderstruck95]

I’m pretty sure he was looking to see if anyone here is from Arizona.

 

[S4gunn]

Local to ... where? You didn't say.

Local to The Solar System - sure, there's at least two Lemons racers here that I remember (S4Gunn and another that I don't remember offhand). Although S4Gunn is rocking a Gen1 with 5.0HO in it, IIRC.

But here's a big hint for free - Find the Factory Service Manual and the Electrical Vacuum Troubleshooting Manual for your year TBird. (They were printed by Helm Inc. back when, and Helm sometimes has reprints in stock; you can also find them on Ebay.) You may be pleasantly surprised at how, with those, your basic mechanical training will handle what you need. If you ARE a mechanic, anyway ...

RwP

My tbird is a Gen 2 with the 5.0 engine.
I had more wiring challenges adapting the gen 2 harness to work with the Gen 1 engine + ECU (see my 5.0 swap notes) but it works AND I have the newer ABS system.

Biggest downside of this car IMO is not power or braking but weight. Even after a severe diet, it's probably 500-600 off in weight vs the most competitive lemons cars. Lighter weight cars can go longer before pitting and need less fuel. At this point, we just enjoy driving it as any more HP will impact it's fuel economy even further.
With so much invested in a 5.0, I'm also not inclined to go to a 4.6L/MarkVIII engine, either.

-g

 

[MaddMartigan]

My tbird is a Gen 2 with the 5.0 engine.
I had more wiring challenges adapting the gen 2 harness to work with the Gen 1 engine + ECU (see my 5.0 swap notes) but it works AND I have the newer ABS system.

Biggest downside of this car IMO is not power or braking but weight. Even after a severe diet, it's probably 500-600 off in weight vs the most competitive lemons cars. Lighter weight cars can go longer before pitting and need less fuel. At this point, we just enjoy driving it as any more HP will impact it's fuel economy even further.
With so much invested in a 5.0, I'm also not inclined to go to a 4.6L/MarkVIII engine, either.

-g

What weight have you gotten down to?

 

[MadMikeyL]

I had mine down to just under 3200lbs with no driver and a full tank of fuel. That was also with 17x9" wheels, 13" cobra brakes, SC sway bars, and a full cage, all of which add a significant amount of weight over stock.

 

[MaddMartigan]

I had mine down to just under 3200lbs with no driver and a full tank of fuel. That was also with 17x9" wheels, 13" cobra brakes, SC sway bars, and a full cage, all of which add a significant amount of weight over stock.

Interesting. The chassis I have was allegedly weighed in at right around 2900lbs. with the cage and the SC drive train. We'll see where I end up when I'm done.

 

[MadMikeyL]

I believe that weight was with a carb'd 302 with aluminum heads, not an SC motor. The aluminum heads and lack of EFI wiring would account for 100lbs right there, plus he cut the whole front bumper and rad support off of it, so I don't find that weight hard to believe.

 

[MaddMartigan]

I believe that weight was with a carb'd 302 with aluminum heads, not an SC motor. The aluminum heads and lack of EFI wiring would account for 100lbs right there, plus he cut the whole front bumper and rad support off of it, so I don't find that weight hard to believe.

Well, I'm not carbed but I am definitely reducing the harness weight. I also have aluminum heads and I've done a few other things to try to keep things lighter. I'll try to get a weight on it at some point.

However, I read through all of the old threads and I have the K member he used and I'm pretty sure he was running the SC engine. He moved the engine back about 3 inches (based on the K member) and I don't think there is room to do that with a 302 based on what I see inside the engine bay.

Again, we'll see.

 

[MadMikeyL]

Here is a link to when it was for sale.
FS: '92 Thunderbird SC
He lists an X303 cam, trick flow twisted wedge heads, and a Demon 650cfm carb, so it was a carb'd 302. That also lists a Lexan windshield, aluminum diff, aluminum rear LCA's, and aluminum driveshaft, which is all weight savings over my Lemons car. Also he lists that it has a boom tube exhaust, whereas our lemons car had true duals all the way to the back, so that is some significant weight savings as well.

 

[MaddMartigan]

Here is a link to when it was for sale.
FS: '92 Thunderbird SC
He lists an X303 cam, trick flow twisted wedge heads, and a Demon 650cfm carb, so it was a carb'd 302. That also lists a Lexan windshield, aluminum diff, aluminum rear LCA's, and aluminum driveshaft, which is all weight savings over my Lemons car. Also he lists that it has a boom tube exhaust, whereas our lemons car had true duals all the way to the back, so that is some significant weight savings as well.

Oh, that was Shane. Lawrence Mansier is who I was talking about. Shane just got it as a rolling chassis from him. Here is the build up/weight loss thread: The Before Picture (Road Racer))

 

[S4gunn]

What weight have you gotten down to?

3150 LB
302 V8. Uprated oil + radiator cooling
Full Cage (6 pt but built to current lemons spec)
Full Fluids
Two front race seats (one Halo)
No driver
No Shopping Cart / Rear Wing Assembly
No frito/cheeto making engine accessory

Might be a little heavier with the driver's FIA monolither fiberglass shell halo seat vs the old corbeau race seat (tube frame), new Bilstein shocks, 17" rims, and Cobra rotors should still be <3200LB

Basically, it's 2x HP and 2x weight of Wildcat XX UTV.
-g

 

[MaddMartigan]

3150 LB
302 V8. Uprated oil + radiator cooling
Full Cage (6 pt but built to current lemons spec)
Full Fluids
Two front race seats (one Halo)
No driver
No Shopping Cart / Rear Wing Assembly
No frito/cheeto making engine accessory

Might be a little heavier with the driver's FIA monolither fiberglass shell halo seat vs the old corbeau race seat (tube frame), new Bilstein shocks, 17" rims, and Cobra rotors should still be <3200LB

Basically, it's 2x HP and 2x weight of Wildcat XX UTV.
-g

That all seems reasonable. Mine will be similar in config but I have aluminum heads instead of cast iron. I'm going to run OMP steel frame seats since that's in my budget. I think they list in at around 22lbs. each so it's not a lot. There is no dash left from OEM and there is no original front or rear bumpers. There is no OEM moon roof and I'm running a Lexan windshield. Allegedly, Lawrence Mansier got this chassis down to 2900lbs. or so with the 3.8SC engine in it. Shane Glynn took it from there and put in a 302 carbed engine and seemed to take it up a bit. We'll see where I end up. If I can hang around 3000lbs. or so without driver and fuel then I'll be more than happy.

 

[S4gunn]

That all seems reasonable. Mine will be similar in config but I have aluminum heads instead of cast iron. I'm going to run OMP steel frame seats since that's in my budget. I think they list in at around 22lbs. each so it's not a lot. There is no dash left from OEM and there is no original front or rear bumpers. There is no OEM moon roof and I'm running a Lexan windshield. Allegedly, Lawrence Mansier got this chassis down to 2900lbs. or so with the 3.8SC engine in it. Shane Glynn took it from there and put in a 302 carbed engine and seemed to take it up a bit. We'll see where I end up. If I can hang around 3000lbs. or so without driver and fuel then I'll be more than happy.

You'll be happy... until you see what a lighter chassis with a similar engine can do.

Examples:
FB RX7 = 2300-2500LB on the street
240Z = 2300LB on the street
240 Volvo turbobrick = 2800LB

All those could take your 302 without too much drama.

 

[MaddMartigan]

You'll be happy... until you see what a lighter chassis with a similar engine can do.

Examples:
FB RX7 = 2300-2500LB on the street
240Z = 2300LB on the street
240 Volvo turbobrick = 2800LB

All those could take your 302 without too much drama.

If I had a 302 they might well do that.

I'm not too worried about it. This was the cheapest route to getting where I wanted to go. Once this train runs its course I'll switch to something else. I just need to wait until my kids grow up and out of the house.