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Discussion Starter #381
Another useful link with lots of graphs, charts and statistics.

Coronavirus tracked: the latest figures as countries fight to contain the pandemic | Free to read

This news article also caught my eye tonight. Dr. Alice Krippin would be so proud of them!

 

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I'm curious if this cure has had human trials yet.

This is a pretty bold statement at this time.
 

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Discussion Starter #385
Our state started reopening but me and my family decided to wait a little further since we think it is still a bit too early. It's better to be safe than sorry.
What state are you in?

You're not alone. I think a LOT of people - my family included - are going to sit tight for a while longer. I highly suspect that the number of infections will climb rapidly with the resumption of "life as usual" by many. I've heard many reports around here of people in public without masks and not practicing social distancing. The clock is running on how long this will last before states are forced to shut down again. I give it a month to six weeks. Best case scenario; we make it through the summer without a major spike until this fall.
 

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Well, you all have been busy! Let me go back to the ghoul comments and just say that I interviewed for a job with the FAA (in '98, but whatever ;) ), and calculating the "cost" of human life is the bread and butter of government economists and regulators. It sounds horrible, but otherwise why allow travel at all? People die in horse-riding accidents, and money can also "save" lives (because it's only for a time, when it comes down to it).

I wear a mask when I'm in enclosed spaces for more than 20 minutes or so, whereas my parents are pretty violently opposed to the whole concept of face coverings. I don't think it's rational, because they are generous, kind people who care about others and would be genuinely horrified to think they had hastened somebody else's death. At the same time, I do think the risks are exaggerated. A Physician Assistant friend of mine, who is adamantly opposed to the reopening trend posted a link to an article which said that prolonged, contained exposure is necessary for person to person infection. All I'm saying is that mutual respect is always helpful, even if (maybe especially when) we don't understand somebody else's point of view.

Also, I'm a registered Republican. Embarrassed at the moment, but also acutely aware of the fact that mainstream journalists are overwhelmingly left of center (having just explained to my children how the W. coalition and congressional approval of the Iraq invasion somehow were conveniently forgotten come election season).

Also... full disclosure... those family members of mine who are not pro-Trump (myself excluded) are conspiracy theorists who are worried about the Illuminati. I love them all (well... In-laws are a little suspect... Lol), but sometimes I feel like the only sane one of the lot (don't really think moving "home" is a good option, divorce aside)!

You all seem like a really well-educated and very talented bunch, but... people are people, and like Matt is saying, no one is callously playing games with lives, at least not whole masses of people. They think things are overblown, and they're frustrated. I'm sympathetic, and I sure don't have the answers.

A lot of the science is still in flux, especially with a huge range of population densities like we have in the US, and there's so much we don't know. I think humility is a great, rare virtue, and therefore... I'm taking the middle road by staying home or outdoors apart from work and grocery shopping, wearing a mask at the grocery store, and following the aisle lane directions. (It's not a given out here, which I do get a little judgy about. I'm only human!)

You guys be safe!
 

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And since my last post was so short (sorry...) My other question is: what happened to "flattening the curve"as our goal? Haven't we done that? So what is our new goal? Isn't the "second wave" going to be that much worse if we don't have broader exposure in the meantime?
 

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And since my last post was so short (sorry...) My other question is: what happened to "flattening the curve"as our goal? Haven't we done that? So what is our new goal? Isn't the "second wave" going to be that much worse if we don't have broader exposure in the meantime?
States that are rushing to open are more worried about their economy than flattening the curve, IMO. Exhibit A: Georgia. They were the last state to close and the first to open. California and New York are being more calculated in their approach to reopen. Governor Newsom has stated on his daily briefings that the curve is flattening but is aware that rushing to open will create a spike in coronavirus cases.
 

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Discussion Starter #389
Well, you all have been busy! Let me go back to the ghoul comments and just say that I interviewed for a job with the FAA (in '98, but whatever ;) ), and calculating the "cost" of human life is the bread and butter of government economists and regulators. It sounds horrible, but otherwise why allow travel at all? People die in horse-riding accidents, and money can also "save" lives (because it's only for a time, when it comes down to it).

I wear a mask when I'm in enclosed spaces for more than 20 minutes or so, whereas my parents are pretty violently opposed to the whole concept of face coverings. I don't think it's rational, because they are generous, kind people who care about others and would be genuinely horrified to think they had hastened somebody else's death. At the same time, I do think the risks are exaggerated. A Physician Assistant friend of mine, who is adamantly opposed to the reopening trend posted a link to an article which said that prolonged, contained exposure is necessary for person to person infection. All I'm saying is that mutual respect is always helpful, even if (maybe especially when) we don't understand somebody else's point of view.

Also, I'm a registered Republican. Embarrassed at the moment, but also acutely aware of the fact that mainstream journalists are overwhelmingly left of center (having just explained to my children how the W. coalition and congressional approval of the Iraq invasion somehow were conveniently forgotten come election season).

Also... full disclosure... those family members of mine who are not pro-Trump (myself excluded) are conspiracy theorists who are worried about the Illuminati. I love them all (well... In-laws are a little suspect... Lol), but sometimes I feel like the only sane one of the lot (don't really think moving "home" is a good option, divorce aside)!

You all seem like a really well-educated and very talented bunch, but... people are people, and like Matt is saying, no one is callously playing games with lives, at least not whole masses of people. They think things are overblown, and they're frustrated. I'm sympathetic, and I sure don't have the answers.
...

You guys be safe!
Thank you Lenise. Those of us who are still active here - yourself included - are a pretty smart bunch if I do say so myself.

As far as media, I've had many a conversation about the perception of "Left wing media". Regardless of news sources we should be able to agree on the facts.

To quote from a discussion at a frequent flyer forum that I’m a member of:

“Getting people to doubt the news is a goal of authoritarian governments. Doubt is a very insidious form of disinformation and it seems that there is an awful lot of it. But facts are facts and there are no such things as "alternate facts". There may be alternate interpretations, but that comes from an accepted body of established facts. We aren't even at that level anymore."

I’m discerning enough to read through the hyperbole regardless of the news source and I hope that you are too. Without naming names, there is no doubt that a certain network is just as undoubtedly biased toward conservatism as “mainstream” media is toward liberalism. The perception that all media is biased left to the exclusion of right wing media is absurd. There are actually some sources out there that are rather centrist.

In short, be discerning enough to distinguish the spin from the facts regardless of the news source. You can't blame the media if you're too lazy to go find the facts and see through the spin.

I recently discovered the Media Bias Fact Check website and I find their analysis accurate. If you’re interested, here’s a link to the list of news sites that they find most centrist:

Least Biased - Media Bias/Fact Check

Check their analysis of your news sources. You may be surprised at where you're getting your news from.

 

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Oh, I'm sure that's true. I'm just wondering if we've thought it all through. It seems like the goals have morphed, and I'm wondering if we've re-evaluated the outcomes? The initial statement I heard was that the more we slow the spread, the wider the contagion will eventually be. I hope that we've found a way to make that untrue? Or are we actually prohibiting young healthy people to self-select and hopefully reduce eventual exposure of more vulnerable demographics? I am asking because I honestly don't know.

Oops... Sorry, I was responding to CDsDon'tBurn. I don't watch news, and I get most of my COVID coverage from the local NBC affiliate. Don't worry... I don't even visit Fox News. There is plenty of value in facts, but there can also be bias in which facts get reported, and fact checks are often also slanted. I can't really obsess over that kind of stuff. I have my hands full raising kids, paying bills, and keeping my car running 🤣 I just take everything with a grain of salt... I subscribe to the theory that conspiracies are unstable and will always be exposed in the end. Obviously, if the federal government were keeping people in their homes, that's a lot more troubling than the decentralized handling we've had of this pandemic. All in all... I'm not overly concerned, just kind of jaded :^)
 

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Most “Mainstream” news is biased one way or the other, but I’ve held the view that for profit cable TV news is as “assisted reality” as the Kardashians independent of any particular administration. Sensationalism and ratings. That’s all Fox, MSNBC, CNN care about, it’s not even a bias really, it’s just playing to demographics.

I agree, not ALL news is biased, I have much more faith in local affiliates and other sources that aren’t constantly looking for an out of context “gotcha!” moment to quote for a clickbaity headline. Every now and then I’ll come across a NYtimes article in my feed(which I do overall think has a hefty left bias) and be surprised to see the author of that particular article is actually quite centrist if you read past the triggering headline that got you there... unless you’re not a subscriber and past your free view limit, in which case you’re left steaming 😆. Its important to separate “news” from news sources from opinion pieces, sources will seem more or less biased to you depending on whether or not you agree with a take from these, which I think is a disservice to otherwise good reporting and investigation work. Similarly I think it’s stupid when newspapers endorse a candidate. That’s not your jobs.
 

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Most “Mainstream” news is biased one way or the other, but I’ve held the view that for profit cable TV news is as “assisted reality” as the Kardashians independent of any particular administration. Sensationalism and ratings. That’s all Fox, MSNBC, CNN care about, it’s not even a bias really, it’s just playing to demographics.

I agree, not ALL news is biased, I have much more faith in local affiliates and other sources that aren’t constantly looking for an out of context “gotcha!” moment to quote for a clickbaity headline. Every now and then I’ll come across a NYtimes article in my feed(which I do overall think has a hefty left bias) and be surprised to see the author of that particular article is actually quite centrist if you read past the triggering headline that got you there... unless you’re not a subscriber and past your free view limit, in which case you’re left steaming 😆. Its important to separate “news” from news sources from opinion pieces, sources will seem more or less biased to you depending on whether or not you agree with a take from these, which I think is a disservice to otherwise good reporting and investigation work. Similarly I think it’s stupid when newspapers endorse a candidate. That’s not your jobs.
Fun fact. If you want to read an interesting article on NYTimes, just cut and paste the URL into a link shortener (like tinyURL or shorl.com). You can then go to outline.com and paste the shortened link and VOILA. Full article access.

Try it.
-g

States that are rushing to open are more worried about their economy than flattening the curve, IMO. Exhibit A: Georgia. They were the last state to close and the first to open. California and New York are being more calculated in their approach to reopen. Governor Newsom has stated on his daily briefings that the curve is flattening but is aware that rushing to open will create a spike in coronavirus cases.
Why is the federal govt fighting the states (example: over PPE) and the states are fighting with the cities for control (ex: over who can determine what types of businesses can open)?
I've read that "Every nation gets the government it deserves" (famous quote from the 1700s) but I can't believe that anyone, left or right, enjoys this mish-mash we are living under today.


While I understand the motivation (even if I don't personally agree with it) that some folks have to rush to bars and to hair salons when they first open AND I can understand the logical desire to reopen construction projects and non-essential businesses for pickup, are there really going to be people rushing out to movie theaters to sit in a closed room with a bunch of randos? Or to sit in a restaurant just so you don't have to do dishes or cook for yourself?
 

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are there really going to be people rushing out to [...] sit in a restaurant just so you don't have to do dishes or cook for yourself?
From what I saw, yes.

I went to get a carry-out order this weekend at a place we got carry out from the previous weekend as well, and they were pretty well swamped with people who wanted to sit out on the patio (Ohio allowed restaurants to open outdoor facilities a few days ahead of indoor dining). I was expecting it'd be active, but it was as busy as you'd expect any other weekend evening to be. We'll be doing carry-out for a while longer, I think.
 

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Discussion Starter #394 (Edited)
Over 90,000 deaths as of today (It took 7 days to hit the next 10K benchmark). Going to break 100,000 deaths in the US before the end of the month. 1.5 Million confirmed cases ... but hey, let's all go out and play and see what happens ...

Talking to my brother last night - who's pretty much a denier of the whole thing and he thinks one-way isles at the grocery stores are socialist. It makes me sad, really sad. I just hope he makes through this long enough to see a vaccine developed. He lives in a developing hot spot.

This guy ... who lives in Florida ... AKA "Florida Man" was a denier until he and his wife caught it. She may die. Nothing like catching is as a reality check.

 

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Discussion Starter #395
As I was saying about number reporting not being accurate in order to drum up support for reopening....

This also happened in Florida.

 

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As I was saying about number reporting not being accurate in order to drum up support for reopening....

This also happened in Florida.

Speaking of reporting numbers and their accuracy. Why have some people gone off and say that other deaths not directly related to COVID-19 are being reported as COVID-19 deaths? For example, if an individual has previously tested positive for COVID-19 but died in a car accident, that the individual's death is would then be counted as a COVID-19 death.

I'm trying to - pointlessly, apparently - inform disbelievers in the numbers that the incorrect reporting of numbers they've seen are just that, incorrect. They see the 90k COVID-19 deaths and say, "2/3 of those deaths were of something else but they tested positive so their death was written down as a COVID-19 death."

How can people discredit this information? How would you guys try and convince, or at the very least have them look at other information, that isn't skewing numbers?
 

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Discussion Starter #397
Speaking of reporting numbers and their accuracy. Why have some people gone off and say that other deaths not directly related to COVID-19 are being reported as COVID-19 deaths? For example, if an individual has previously tested positive for COVID-19 but died in a car accident, that the individual's death is would then be counted as a COVID-19 death.

I'm trying to - pointlessly, apparently - inform disbelievers in the numbers that the incorrect reporting of numbers they've seen are just that, incorrect. They see the 90k COVID-19 deaths and say, "2/3 of those deaths were of something else but they tested positive so their death was written down as a COVID-19 death."

How can people discredit this information? How would you guys try and convince, or at the very least have them look at other information, that isn't skewing numbers?
I'm well aware of those false accusations. I have yet to see a reliable source of any examples of that. I'm with you, the deaths are not being over reported but under reported.

To answer your question, ask them for their source? Where did you hear that? Was it first or second hand information? (Do they even know the difference? LOL). Was it from a reputable source? Ask for that source. Show me the link, tell me where you heard that.

Go back to the segment of this thread on conspiracy theories and why they're believed. There's really no way to covince those kind of people. The best you can do is try to understand their ignorance.
 

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People believe anything that's on FB, with zero interest in fact checking.
 

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The internet is basically an uninterrupted never ending game of telephone. I’ve heard this too, it’s always so and so’s brother who is a nurse at a hospital said a patient died of rabies from a raccoon bite and some senior doctor with black ops connections told them to list it as a covid death. I remember back in March it was so and so’s dad says the national guard will be shutting down streets. I must have missed that somehow!

People who believe it believe it because there are alternate examples of conflating numbers for politicians to take advantage of(like including suicides in gun violence death totals). It’s not an implausible situation but the inconvenient question still remains “why?” I’ve wavered back and forth on whether we’re handling this right or not, but I’m still not seeing the conspiracy yarn people are spinning. I’m glad to see people still have imaginations at least.
 

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Mother nature hates us; we don't need conspiracy theories about war weapons to make us insecure.

If this were a war weapon, we'd all be dead; it had a two month period where we weren't doing ****.

Small pox, with no vaccine response would kill us all in two months. We should worry; There's no vaccine stockpile for Pox these days, so we're fucked if even the natural version escapes a lab.

The heated up version the Russians made tons of would blow thru us so fast, and only the people with vaccination for the heated up version would be safe.
 
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