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Discussion Starter #581
Wow! I don't remember that poll. But yeah, my how the times have changed.
 

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Im not sure i get your anger here.
1)
- Your rant seems to be that is that increased online consumption, which requires you to work longer hours, is preventing you from homeschooling?
I would argue that anyone still buying **** that you are paid to pick and ship keeps the economy moving and people employed. Its a safer alternative for everyone involved than everyone trying to go back to business as usual. I'm in sales. Business is booming. And THATS my point!

Q: What alternative would you prefer?
  • People going out more and exposing themselves? NOONE STOPPED! Record foot traffic in stores that were deemed "essential". Safer at home didn't mean "safer at homedepot"
  • People consuming less and therefore you will get less hours? Are you NOT able to decline overtime? If so, why is your anger not with your employer vs the consumers? I don't make overtime, I make commission. And my increase was so large that in April and May, i made what I usually make in 6 months, i've been blessed. I Love what i do regardless of the money. I work with people I consider family. One of which was my brother in law who passed in June, unrelated to covid.
  • The government offering more assistance? Would you prefer cash, leadership in organizing smaller groups, or simply forcing retail/schools to open? There shouldn't have been a stimulus in the first place. We're being told now that if you stand atleast 6.1 feet away, wear a paper mask and keep conversations 14 minutes and 59 seconds or less, you'll help get rid of the virus. My alternative is lets all get back at it, follow the guidelines and do what Americans do, We make good **** happen. Not cower and hide behind whatever science we decide fits our agendas.
2) You are deriding people who have the means/occupation to stay home as little bitches not worthy of an opinion of whats going on in the world. If you were working in hospitals actually dealing with patients, I would say your experience carries more weight as first hand experience but again, it's purely anecdotal. I would argue that those of us who don't go out on a regular basis see more obvious changes than you since you are going about your own life of the same workplace, the same co-workers, and along the same commute routes daily. So because I don't work in a hospital my first hand experience dealing with packed stores, bars, homes, vacation spots and the like doesn't carry the same weight. Thanks bud. I'm glad I'm of value to you. Next time you pick up groceries I want you to tell the person working there they don't matter as much as a doctor or nurse. I guess real world experience is purely anecdotal. Again, NO ONE STAYED HOME!

3) You also seem to have a bias against "news channels". IMO, the rise of a lot of dubious news sources (ex: One America Network), has made a lot more people skeptical about the more legitimate sources. Clearly, FB, Twitter, and other companies have made millions off of this engagement and spread of false information. Sure, you might have more anecdotal data but why the skepticism on actual scientific research conducted by people with even more education than both of us? By your own admission, you work too much to have the time to curate the information available (sifting for peanuts from the elephant ****). If so, why deride those who choose to try and evaluate the sources and post them here for others? OAN will be owned by Trump when he leaves office and will become TAN (Trump America News) ;) Kidding aside, I can't stand advertiser focused news agencies. Fox News Panders to their focus group for advertisers. CNN and MSNBC do the same. I watch only local news outlets. I mostly read my news from the major contributors and avoid the "video clips" as best I can. Problem I have is I have to read through multiple sites on the same subject to find the overlaps in the stories just to get a real idea on whats going on. And I just don't have time for it. I'm not a political person, I just want to know whats going on without side spin. I grew up in the DC area and have dealt with it all my life always being told "thats just how it is". I'm tired of it.

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IMO, your anger seems misplaced and is a classic example of folks in power drumming up class warfare so we ignore the real criminals in society: those at the top that are stealing millions and have enriched themselves as the expense of the rest of us. Why are you more upset with the avg middle class person, who is also struggling with this pandemic BS, than you are with those who are currently in power but NOT doing anything to help us? These major network news anchors literally make millions of dollars. Are you not making my point on this for me? I'm not upset with my my fellow average middle class AMERICAN,and especially not my friends who aren't quite there yet, who is struggling with this pandemic bs, I'm worried though that they are too worried about waiting for someone who they THINK has more power than them to do something for us.
Answered in the quote because i suck at the internets.

Message to everyone: We the People have the power, Not them. WE SHOULD DECIDE How WE want to get back on track. We're letting everyone else dictate how we're going about our days because some might die of an illness. If you don't want to send your kids to school because you're scared, thats OK. Seriously, I support that. But All i ask in return is if I'm going to respect your decision, you respect mine where i'd like my son in grade school to go back, using the proper protocols. Something about this whole thing stinks to me, I get the feeling if the election goes a certain way this crap will end November 4th. We Americans have never hid from adversity, I'm worried we've decided to throw in the towel. :(
 

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Problem I have is I have to read through multiple sites on the same subject to find the overlaps in the stories just to get a real idea on whats going on. And I just don't have time for it. I'm not a political person, I just want to know whats going on without side spin.
Answered in the quote because i suck at the internets.

Message to everyone: We the People have the power, Not them. WE SHOULD DECIDE How WE want to get back on track. We're letting everyone else dictate how we're going about our days because some might die of an illness. If you don't want to send your kids to school because you're scared, thats OK. Seriously, I support that. But All i ask in return is if I'm going to respect your decision, you respect mine where i'd like my son in grade school to go back, using the proper protocols. Something about this whole thing stinks to me, I get the feeling if the election goes a certain way this crap will end November 4th. We Americans have never hid from adversity, I'm worried we've decided to throw in the towel. :(
I think what you want is this website:


It takes a single topic and puts it all together for you with how the Left / Center / Right spin it. From there, you can form your opinion.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

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Well ever the skeptic at my core, I did say that if there isn’t a spike weeks after the protests, that I think there may be something to the conspiracy angle, but then spikes started happening weeks after the protests, sooooo....

Look, I absolutely can believe there are some people who are secretly or subconsciously a little happy this happened for political reasons, but that’s a far cry from hoaxing a pandemic to skew an upcoming election result.


And yeah, Americans don’t hide from adversity, we fight it. The virus is the adversary, not each other.
 

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Discussion Starter #585
Problem I have is I have to read through multiple sites on the same subject to find the overlaps in the stories just to get a real idea on whats going on. And I just don't have time for it. I'm not a political person, I just want to know whats going on without side spin. I grew up in the DC area and have dealt with it all my life always being told "that's just how it is". I'm tired of it.
It's good that your discerning enough not to take a story at face value and will dig deeper into what's actually being reported.

You might also consider checking out Media Bias/Fact Check - Search and Learn the Bias of News Media

In addition to this site that CDs Linked.

I think what you want is this website:


It takes a single topic and puts it all together for you with how the Left / Center / Right spin it. From there, you can form your opinion.
 

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As far as returning to school goes, my wife has a few ideas that, IMO, are brilliant ideas for a safe(er) return to school:

1. Setup viral capturing HEPA filters in each room
2. Have viral capable HEPA filter integrated into the HVAC system (separate from previous point)
3. Setup low dosage UV ceiling lights (replacing the existing lights)
4. Continue to use face coverings and washing hands (of course!)

How these ideas would be paid for for each and every single school and classroom across the country, IDK. These likely won't even be discussed with anyone anywhere that has any pull on getting any of the first 3 ideas done.

Her and I both recognize that these may not be 100% but they are definitely better than some of the things that we've seen online (barriers barely taller than the desks, individual barriers compartmentalizing each kid, square drawn on ground, etc.).

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
1) One is an interesting idea. My wife asked me to look into these for her work. The problem is that the cheapier units (<$100) don't have enough airflow through the filter to circulate the air in the room 3x/hr (the standard is 2-5x). The biggest rooms she was looking to put them in (conf rooms) were only 200sq ft and probably half the size of even a small classroom built for 20+ kids (avg in america). The units I found ran $150-200 in packs of 3. Assuming you bought a ton, you might bring that down to just over $100. Plus filters at $50/ea.
I don't see these ending up in schools unless you had a) a really well heeled private school or more likely b) a generous/paranoid parent for each and every room.

2) Yeah, the cheapie ones just use ionization (positively charged plate) which creates ozone as a byproduct. Good for the upper atmosphere -- lung irritant near humans.

3) UV lights. UV-C is the wavelength good for sanitization but bad for eyes and skin. Not exactly a super effective method to put in the ceiling. Imagine the poor redheads who will get skin cancer from going to school. Now, if you put it in the ducting, tyou then have a problem of dwell time (amount of time air spends under the harmful rays). Decrease airflow to increase dwelltime (so airbone covid can get zapped going into the duct into the classroom) and you harm airflow.
 

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Answered in the quote because i suck at the internets.

Message to everyone: We the People have the power, Not them. WE SHOULD DECIDE How WE want to get back on track. We're letting everyone else dictate how we're going about our days because some might die of an illness. If you don't want to send your kids to school because you're scared, thats OK. Seriously, I support that. But All i ask in return is if I'm going to respect your decision, you respect mine where i'd like my son in grade school to go back, using the proper protocols. Something about this whole thing stinks to me, I get the feeling if the election goes a certain way this crap will end November 4th. We Americans have never hid from adversity, I'm worried we've decided to throw in the towel. :(
So you don't want to be told what to do based on your "freedoms".

Q: How do you balance your freedom with what's good for society?
We already accept that things like speed limits, food safety, and environmental regulations need to exist to protect society.

Q: How is wearing a mask or refraining to collecting in groups outside of your immediate family, any different?

If you are a total libertarian and think that none of these infringements on your personal freedoms should exist, please explain how your worldview can prevent "The Tragedy of the Commons"
Short summary: if everyone acts PURELY in their own self interest, common resources get fucked.


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"Something about this whole thing stinks to me, I get the feeling if the election goes a certain way this crap will end November 4th."
In this statement, you are acting based on a personal opinion that "something isn't right" (without even anecdotal evidence) and that seems to influence your resistance to sacrifice for the collective good.

I too invite your skepticism but you should really think about all the viewpoints being presented instead of dismissing those which don't agree with your own (confirmation bias). The evidence, even if it hasn't touched you personally, that covid is very real and very infectious with a bunch of different long term effects. Overreacting is acceptable in these situations -- just like yelling at your young kid if he all of the sudden takes off at a dead run towards a busy intersection. He might stop before he gets there and its bad to yell at your kids but a small outburst to make sure he/she recognizes you are serious won't cause lasting damage. I feel the same way about masks.

Q: How do you balance this personal belief against the evidence collected beyond what you can see with your own two eyes? I've never seen a molecule or electron but I know they exist by both the evidence collected by experts and my own experience seeing the second order effects (aka I see what happens when you hook up a battery to a bulb so I know there's some "magic" being tansferred from one end of the battery, to the bulb, and back again).


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American individualism is part of what makes America a great place to live but it's also our main hindrance in this pandemic. If you look at other societies, they seem to be doing much better at sticking together and bending the curve.t
 

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1) One is an interesting idea. My wife asked me to look into these for her work. The problem is that the cheapier units (hr (the standard is 2-5x). The biggest rooms she was looking to put them in (conf rooms) were only 200sq ft and probably half the size of even a small classroom built for 20+ kids (avg in america). The units I found ran $150-200 in packs of 3. Assuming you bought a ton, you might bring that down to just over $100. Plus filters at $50/ea.
I don't see these ending up in schools unless you had a) a really well heeled private school or more likely b) a generous/paranoid parent for each and every room.

2) Yeah, the cheapie ones just use ionization (positively charged plate) which creates ozone as a byproduct. Good for the upper atmosphere -- lung irritant near humans.

3) UV lights. UV-C is the wavelength good for sanitization but bad for eyes and skin. Not exactly a super effective method to put in the ceiling. Imagine the poor redheads who will get skin cancer from going to school. Now, if you put it in the ducting, tyou then have a problem of dwell time (amount of time air spends under the harmful rays). Decrease airflow to increase dwelltime (so airbone covid can get zapped going into the duct into the classroom) and you harm airflow.
These were all ideas.

Specifically, point 1, my wife's urgent care clinic had setup 3x portable viral capable HEPA air filter units in the lobby, ~2,000sq/ft, and ran them for a minimum of 3hrs before letting people back in.

I understand that in a classroom environment there will be people (kids) in at all times and may not be as effective in a room without anyone in it, but it would still be better than nothing.

And if course cost associated with this as I stated before.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #589
All of my Israeli coworkers have stated that pushing to open schools back up there is universally regarded as a mistake

In case you were wondering, Haaretz is one of the biggest national newspapers in IL founded back when it was British Palestine. Along with the Jerusalem Times, its one of the two you would expect to get at your hotel every morning. Half of it is domestic/regionally focused and the other half is often is "what are the American's up up to and what do they think of us". Therefore, Haaretz writing an article about what Americans can learn from us is NOT completely unexpected.
Thanks for sharing this. Pushing to reopen schools here is equally a mistake. But, as we've seen, stupid people have to learn lessons the hard way. Unfortunately many more will die as a result of these hard learned lessons.... if they're even learned at all. Becuase, as we've also seen, nothing is ever the individuals fault. It's always someone else's fault. Taking blame for one's own actions is the exception rather than the rule.
 

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Thats not how HVAC works. You would only be filtering the outside air coming into or exiting the building.
Umm ...

I dunno what you're talking about, but the central systems used in most schools - yes, you would be filtering the inside air.

My window units? You're probably right ...

RwP
 

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Umm ...

I dunno what you're talking about, but the central systems used in most schools - yes, you would be filtering the inside air.

My window units? You're probably right ...
HVAC Ducted vs. Non ducted ? Split systems? Heat pumps ?

Yes non-ducted units are strictly recirculation. Your window unit may be capable of outside air or recirculation.

Those vents in the class rooms are not intakes unless youre in science lab or metal shop.
 

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HVAC Ducted vs. Non ducted ? Split systems? Heat pumps ?

Yes non-ducted units are strictly recirculation. Your window unit may be capable of outside air or recirculation.

Those vents in the class rooms are not intakes unless youre in science lab or metal shop.
So in a hypothetical "filter at the classroom scenario", you would place the filtration/UV-C system at the intake of the building vs the outlet into each room?
I'm sure that putting it for each classroom is NOT cost effective but how does that prevent contamination within the room?
 

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So in a hypothetical "filter at the classroom scenario", you would place the filtration/UV-C system at the intake of the building vs the outlet into each room?
I'm sure that putting it for each classroom is NOT cost effective but how does that prevent contamination within the room?
I'm saying that it would not work at all.

Your typical classroom, even if its HVAC (Heating and / or Cooling ) system is a ducted one ( older, central style ) - the "Central" air intake is not supplied from inside the class rooms. Typically sourced to outside air / boiler room / etc .. Or, if you have central heating / cooling at home, your intake normally is at the furnace, inside the house ( recirculation system ). Even if you "filtered" every aspect of the air flow coming into and out of the air handling unit ( in your house, or large scale commercial ) .. you are only giving longevity to the HVAC system itself.

Air is going to flow due to the use of fan driven units ( ducted / non ducted ) .. air is going to flow due to radiant heat ( steam / hot water radiators ) .. air is going to flow from people moving. The contamination comes from the people inside, and is spread between the people inside, regardless of any filter system ( unless its the kind you wear on your face ). You will do nothing to mitigate the spread of the contamination unless you remove the source of the contamination. "Cleanrooms" are only that way because the people inside are wearing bunny suits also.

EDIT: ... you're talking about UV Lights. All you do is replace the Light bulbs - and no you cant do that because you'll fry the kids. You run them in the "off" hours, but that only removes the surface contamination.
 

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Discussion Starter #595
I see what you're saying. It's the same problem that they had on the cruise ships.
 

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I see what you're saying. It's the same problem that they had on the cruise ships.
When travelling for your work, do you consider the type of ventilation system your hotel options offer? In addition to their cleaning policies, this is probably something I'd personally look into if I was forced to travel and booked a hotel.
-g
 

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Discussion Starter #597
Every major hotel chain has implemented extra cleaning and cleanliness policies and procedures in the wake of this pandemic. As I am a Hilton regular here's a link to their policies and procedures. It's worth noting that - in accordance with CDC guidelines - as of July 24, 2020 "face coverings in all indoor public areas of all our hotels throughout the U.S. for guests and Team Members is now mandatory."


In the spring in-room housekeeping was changed from daily to about every three days in order to reduce potential exposure for both guests and housekeeping staff. If I needed towels I could always ask for more at the front desk and leave my dirty towels and trash in the hallway outside my room for pickup.

Hotel rooms each have their own HVAC and the lobby and hallways are handled through a central system. To be honest, I hadn't given much thought to the air handlers of the hotels. In my experience, back in March and April when all this started, at that time 98% of people traveling were essential workers like myself. The hotel I was at in Pennsylvania was at about 50% occupancy with lots of empty rooms and hallways. Social distancing wasn't a problem.

DELTA airlines has also take a very hard and commendable stance against those who would attempt to skirt the mask requirements. They've already added over 100 people who have refused to wear masks to their no-fly list. They're not messing around and I very much appreciate their stance.

Delta Air Lines Bans “Over 100 People” For Not Wearing Face Masks

Here's a photo that's both funny and sad. You can tell how much he cares about the kids behind him and those around him. I doubt with DELTA's new policy that he could get away with this kind of nonsense now.

This is how a tRump supporter wears a mask on a flight.

38989
 

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Always wear a mask, with that said, if you have a temperature, cough or SOB, do not be an ******* and got to work. That happened at the wifes office. an ******* came into the hallway in front of her office. The wife is locked into her room with the door closed all the time.

Only going out when needed. Always masked up.

This ass comes into the hallway, asking if someone has a thermometer, because he feels sick.

Seven days later, after a covid test, positive. Assholes like that deserve the misery they get.
 

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Discussion Starter #599
No sh!t. Go the F home and check your temp. with your own eFFing thermometer. Or if you feel the least bit shitty don't eFFing go to work! WTF people!!??

So sorry your wife had to deal with that. Are you saying that 7 days after that encounter your wife tested positive? If so, I'm so sorry.
 

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This is how a tRump supporter wears a mask on a flight.

View attachment 38989
Also BLM supporters; and a lot of folks with no apparent political flags on their clothes.

It's amazing how many folks just plane (!!) won't wear masks properly.

Add to that the ones that wear the drive-by-shooting masks ...

Yah, those masks don't do jack **** on slowing infection vectors. Because THEY'RE THE WRONG KIND OR BEING WORN WRONG!!!

Blargh.

But again; before mandating masks, I'd like to mandate pulling pants up and getting dressed before going out to WalMart. That ain't happening.

RwP
 
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