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So you don't want to be told what to do based on your "freedoms".

Q: How do you balance your freedom with what's good for society?
We already accept that things like speed limits, food safety, and environmental regulations need to exist to protect society.

Q: How is wearing a mask or refraining to collecting in groups outside of your immediate family, any different?

If you are a total libertarian and think that none of these infringements on your personal freedoms should exist, please explain how your worldview can prevent "The Tragedy of the Commons"
Short summary: if everyone acts PURELY in their own self interest, common resources get fucked.


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"Something about this whole thing stinks to me, I get the feeling if the election goes a certain way this crap will end November 4th."
In this statement, you are acting based on a personal opinion that "something isn't right" (without even anecdotal evidence) and that seems to influence your resistance to sacrifice for the collective good.

I too invite your skepticism but you should really think about all the viewpoints being presented instead of dismissing those which don't agree with your own (confirmation bias). The evidence, even if it hasn't touched you personally, that covid is very real and very infectious with a bunch of different long term effects. Overreacting is acceptable in these situations -- just like yelling at your young kid if he all of the sudden takes off at a dead run towards a busy intersection. He might stop before he gets there and its bad to yell at your kids but a small outburst to make sure he/she recognizes you are serious won't cause lasting damage. I feel the same way about masks.

Q: How do you balance this personal belief against the evidence collected beyond what you can see with your own two eyes? I've never seen a molecule or electron but I know they exist by both the evidence collected by experts and my own experience seeing the second order effects (aka I see what happens when you hook up a battery to a bulb so I know there's some "magic" being tansferred from one end of the battery, to the bulb, and back again).


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American individualism is part of what makes America a great place to live but it's also our main hindrance in this pandemic. If you look at other societies, they seem to be doing much better at sticking together and bending the curve.t
(y) Thanks for your input. I appreciate your points of view. I was paid back my sarcastic pompous **** from my original post by you in this one. Ill eat my crow.I will always believe in what I believe in. You are no different. Which makes us the same but different. Thats what makes this country great and work. Stay safe and Healthy everyone, you too S4gunn.

I understand your frustration. There are no good answers. Everyone is going to have to figure out what works best for them. Forcing every school to reopen by threatening to withhold funding is straight up coercion. Fortunately, coercion aside, the decision as to how they proceed to reopen this fall is up to the various states and school districts.

Assuming you're the only essential worker here is very presumptive. Many of us here are continuing to work. I worked - and traveled - including flying - through the start of this pandemic in March and April. I'm currently working at our shop in Charlotte and I will be back on the road again in September. Believe me, I'm very nervous about going back on the road this fall as the virus is much more widely spread now than it was back in the spring.

Now, the most important point I want to make is, provided that your instrument cluster surround is in decent shape I'd be interested in buying it from you.

Please start a part-out sale thread with pictures of the car so that we can see what condition the car and parts on it are in. Thanks.
instrument cluster surround is in tact but 2 of the tabs on the back were busted because someone tried to pry out my dvd player a few months ago. a i have someone who scraps coming by to make me an offer on it Friday. if its under $200 ill probably decline and snap some pics and start a thread.
 

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Sigh.
Add to that the ones that wear the drive-by-shooting masks ...
I know the Prius is the ideal vehicle in CA for committing drive-bys (especially in SF) because
a) you can merge into traffic and look like every other car and
b) you can really sneak up on a person

but
Q: What's a mask that should be worn during drive-by shootings?

Asking for a friend.

-g
 

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(y) Thanks for your input. I appreciate your points of view. I was paid back my sarcastic pompous **** from my original post by you in this one. Ill eat my crow.I will always believe in what I believe in. You are no different. Which makes us the same but different. Thats what makes this country great and work. Stay safe and Healthy everyone, you too S4gunn.
No worries man. I'm glad to have you here as well.

I know that there has been a balkanization in online discourse as people tend to gravitate towards only those who have the same/similar view points in the world (people look for affirmation, not advice). Youtube and Facebook are paid when people remain engaged so both have a vested interest in promoting a) **** that enrages their others and b) more extreme views of whatever people tend to see.

This is one of the reasons I'm so active here on TCCOA; it gives me regular discourse with people with far ranging ages and worldviews that I would NOT normally encounter living here in SF (esp now that I work from home). Even with friends and business customers/partners worldwide, most of them are "cut from the same cloth" as me in terms of both educational (by and large engineering/science/medical/IT folks with the random "failed" engineer who went into law or business), socioeconomic, and political backgrounds even if they might be racially/culturally diverse. Some might be pro-gun and pro-Republican but very few are pro Trump.

You see a lot more long term discourse here vs with Reddit, twitter, or the more toxic Yahoo/Disquis news comments which all just seem to be people yelling at each other across a political divide.

BTW, I did NOT mean to disparage your worldview based on your experiences during this pandemic NOR do I cheapen the work done by folks who are shopping for me @ the local grocery stores. I'm personally grateful that they are taking the exposure vs me and am happy to tip them more than the 5% or whatever instacart defaults to. I merely questioned why you would place so much stock in what you've seen/experience personally when there are others out there with more dire experiences (folks doing medical work being an example) and scientific evidence.

Here's a frontline anecdote from a doctor who volunteered in Brownsville. His comments on the nurse to ICU patient ratio is pretty shocking.

One of my close friends from college is a surgical oncologist in New Orleans. He's been conscripted to work in the ER if necessary. Getting updates from him on how things are going for him and how this may play out in other countries. One thing he told me that's shocking is how lots of hospital systems are talking about paycuts across the board or implementing them already; their reasoning is that ramping up for covid has cost $$$ and cutting elective surguries has cost them revenue. While he says that the hospital system he works for has not made any decisions yet and any potential cut would NOT affect how employees work in the pandemic (they aren't going to sick out/protest), how things play out should one be implemented. As a rule, MD jobs are extremely portable and the younger docs (say under 40) can easily pick up, move, and still end up in the upper echelons of the socio economic ladder in whatever municipality they end up in. Future standard of care (and keeping top talent) may be affected by decisions made in the near future as these young docs get a cut and then decide to move onto more stable locales when things go back to normal.

----
In other news, I find it interesting how school unions are dealing with the pandemic.
On one hand, they are authorizing strikes if forced to go back to work in unsafe conditions. Honestly, fair enough

However, some teachers (esp older ones) are also resisting the transition to online education as something "they didn't sign up for"

Finally, a wave of early retirements may exacerbate the problem.

I don't know how to solve these problem other than to turn the money printer from companies with links to the current administration and/or enough reserves to see them through (aka not
small businesses like the LA Lakers - who returned their PPP money only after public outrage) and towards schools. IMO, the hospitals can make their own decisions. They can decide to pay themselves or take cuts and endear themselves to their staff but schools NEED resources if they are to go F2F or online.
 

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I don't know if you saw the news but Herman Caine died a few days ago after attending the Tulsa rally. I think that brings the # of african american voters for trump down into the single digits. Why couldn't they have taken Kanye instead?
 

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Yeah, I saw that Herman Cain died yesterday of COVID. I wonder how many other political figures have died as well.
 

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I completely forgot about that guy. I remember thinking during the time he was running in that particular pack “man, elections have become a dumb reality show”. Seems so quaint two presidential cycles later
Yeah.
Esp when long form journalism pieces like this are coming out:
  • The govt task force, led by Kuchner, did manage to come up with a plan for widespread testing by early April, but they decided to turf it because it was primarily affecting blue states.
  • The press also has proof in the form of copies of the purchase orders, that the US govt, for delivery to the "WH", went out of its way to purchase 3.5M covid tests (which ended up being substandard and unusable) from a business in the UAE, outside of normal procurement channels
This level of backroom dealing and political games is shocking. Its like GoT without dragons.
 

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... yeah, went "POOF" right along with the money for it. I'm sure Kushner was well compensated for accomplishing nothing.

There is really nothing shocking about anything this administration does. What is shocking is how they get away with it.

Here's a great summary of "Profiteering during a Pandemic in 10 simple steps" that someone compiled.

I now know what Jared Kushner meant when he said “It’s ‘our’ stockpile” and then the HHS website was updated to reflect that comment! After Kushner says 'it's our stockpile,' HHS website changed to echo his comments on federal crisis role

  1. Most importantly! Eliminate Oversight - Remove the Inspectors General (IG’s)
  2. Remove the top watchdog and replace with an ally. Glenn Fine replaced by Shawn O’donnell
  3. Enact the defense production act to eliminate competition
  4. Attack any company that does not play by your rules. i.e. 3M
  5. Create further demand for the supplies due to scarcity
  6. Get trusted allies to create private companies which you can funnel money into. – i.e. Blue Flame Medical founded by Mike Gula and John Thomas on Monday, March 23, 2020.
  7. Sell stockpiles to your allies for cheap. – The Gov. sells stockpiles to Blue Flame Medical and other shell companies (i.e. Panthera Worldwide) who then resells the supplies to the States.
  8. Use taxpayers money to ship supplies to further reduce costs for the private shell companies
  9. Cause a bidding war between states to drive prices up
  10. Continue to rapidly distribute funds to your allies without any oversight.
A well-researched and documented telling of the above profiteering:
 

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No worries man. I'm glad to have you here as well.

I know that there has been a balkanization in online discourse as people tend to gravitate towards only those who have the same/similar view points in the world (people look for affirmation, not advice). Youtube and Facebook are paid when people remain engaged so both have a vested interest in promoting a) **** that enrages their others and b) more extreme views of whatever people tend to see.

This is one of the reasons I'm so active here on TCCOA; it gives me regular discourse with people with far ranging ages and worldviews that I would NOT normally encounter living here in SF (esp now that I work from home). Even with friends and business customers/partners worldwide, most of them are "cut from the same cloth" as me in terms of both educational (by and large engineering/science/medical/IT folks with the random "failed" engineer who went into law or business), socioeconomic, and political backgrounds even if they might be racially/culturally diverse. Some might be pro-gun and pro-Republican but very few are pro Trump.

You see a lot more long term discourse here vs with Reddit, twitter, or the more toxic Yahoo/Disquis news comments which all just seem to be people yelling at each other across a political divide.

BTW, I did NOT mean to disparage your worldview based on your experiences during this pandemic NOR do I cheapen the work done by folks who are shopping for me @ the local grocery stores. I'm personally grateful that they are taking the exposure vs me and am happy to tip them more than the 5% or whatever instacart defaults to. I merely questioned why you would place so much stock in what you've seen/experience personally when there are others out there with more dire experiences (folks doing medical work being an example) and scientific evidence.

Here's a frontline anecdote from a doctor who volunteered in Brownsville. His comments on the nurse to ICU patient ratio is pretty shocking.

One of my close friends from college is a surgical oncologist in New Orleans. He's been conscripted to work in the ER if necessary. Getting updates from him on how things are going for him and how this may play out in other countries. One thing he told me that's shocking is how lots of hospital systems are talking about paycuts across the board or implementing them already; their reasoning is that ramping up for covid has cost $$$ and cutting elective surguries has cost them revenue. While he says that the hospital system he works for has not made any decisions yet and any potential cut would NOT affect how employees work in the pandemic (they aren't going to sick out/protest), how things play out should one be implemented. As a rule, MD jobs are extremely portable and the younger docs (say under 40) can easily pick up, move, and still end up in the upper echelons of the socio economic ladder in whatever municipality they end up in. Future standard of care (and keeping top talent) may be affected by decisions made in the near future as these young docs get a cut and then decide to move onto more stable locales when things go back to normal.

----
In other news, I find it interesting how school unions are dealing with the pandemic.
On one hand, they are authorizing strikes if forced to go back to work in unsafe conditions. Honestly, fair enough

However, some teachers (esp older ones) are also resisting the transition to online education as something "they didn't sign up for"

Finally, a wave of early retirements may exacerbate the problem.

I don't know how to solve these problem other than to turn the money printer from companies with links to the current administration and/or enough reserves to see them through (aka not
small businesses like the LA Lakers - who returned their PPP money only after public outrage) and towards schools. IMO, the hospitals can make their own decisions. They can decide to pay themselves or take cuts and endear themselves to their staff but schools NEED resources if they are to go F2F or online.
Right off the bat, You've made a mistake. You've assumed too much. You've assumed that since I'm from a southern state I'm Republican. I am not of any political side. You have assumed since I live in Memphis I'm on the lower end of the economic scale, again I am not. And you assumed you know people or hear from people in places I don't. I don't have a "friend who works in the health industry" I have FAMILY. A sister, a sister in law, 2 cousins, my sons god mother, my uncle who retired from the Navy to get into the new front line in PA. My Mother is a 3 time cancer survivor at high risk and we have her and my healthy dad on lock down and we haven't seen them since December, as her lock down started PRIOR to SARS-CoV-2.

All of you, Please stop with the politics. I mentioned "something not feeling right" about this because IT DOES FEEL LIKE POLITICS are playing a roll. I DON'T care what decisions are being made in Washington D.C. My point is and has been, regarding schools, we as adults know what needs to be done. If we can be safe wearing a mask, keeping more than 6 feet of distance and keeping good hygiene, we've been teaching our kids this, why not let them have their chance to prove they can do it? Sgunn, dude I don't care who you vote for. Thats you're choice and I'm happy you made a decision based on what you're moral and political beliefs are. Same for every one in this forum and those who aren't...This is F*(King AMERICA. NO ONE SHOULD EVER FEEL ASHAMED NOR SHOULD THEY FEEL AFRAID OF WHO THEY ARE GOING TO VOTE FOR. IN ANY ELECTION. This is a Pandemic we didn't choose. Scientifically, its not as dangerous as it was predicted but its still dangerous. We have guidelines to follow, our kids are ready to take the lead and do it right. Lets get this country back on track! Doesn't matter who is in charge " Cheetle or Feeble" 2 heads, same dragon. WE make the difference and will. Thats why we're in charge of our offspring and not the State. Thanks sgunn for all the links. I personally think you and I are singing the same song, just in a different language. I will say this, nothing about all of this is political as much as our talking heads want it to be. Unless you're just some keyboard jockey ready to strike the next non believer down, it is actually ok to leave your house and live. just take the precautions. All I'm saying we allow our children who've been couped up for 5 months get the opportunity to do so too. If OUR teachers don't want to do it, I'll need that tax money back to find someone who's brave enough to trust my intelligent son.

I'll keep my notifications up a bit longer but my bird is heading to the recycling bin in a few days. This Forum was my social media. Thanks to everyone through the years for the help especially before the forum changes. I watched this car be delivered to my grandfather and took his first spin around his neighborhood with him off the truck. I'm going to miss it.
-Travis
 

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Discussion Starter #610
I'll let this conversation end with your reply. No need to discuss further, we all have our own take on things.

Just because you no longer have a Tbird doesn't mean you can't continue to hang out here. Granted the forum is a shadow of its former self but hey, we're always up to discuss whatever.

Best wishes to you and your family Travis.

Stay safe, stay healthy!

-Ron
 

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Travis
It's been a pleasure chatting with you. I also agree that we are singing the same song but I would say we are using different dialects, not different languages. We aren't that far apart. I didn't assume you were a republican nor did I care as well. Even though I live in ground zero for socialism, SF, I'm from Texas so im a bit more of an outlier here than most in terms of view.

We both agree that covid is dangerous; the question is to what degree. Even with your family in healthcare, you aren't nearly as worried about it. Im farther down the rabbit hole.

As far as politics getting involved, I never understood how masks vs freedoms became a political issue. It's a health one. Just like with other issues, one party more than the other made this the story. This cannot be ignored and as news comes out, those in power made decisions based for self-serving, political and PR reasons vs scientific ones. Even if other Presidents have done the same (no president or multiterm senator has died penniless), noone has implemented such brazen looting to this degree. I might actually be ok with a little self dealing and enrichment had he been competent at his job. However, his response to the pandemic, lack of leading by example, and putting states against each other for PPE has been terrible.
This is what has gotten my panties in a bunch.

At one time, I was a registered republican. Why? Switching parties wouldn't affect my ability to vote yay/nay on the dozens of voter resolutions which are the key issues in CA voting (whoever gets elected will be more liberal for my taste). I did so because I wanted to pick a more moderate candidate with more experience than the shitpot we have for POTUS. Do you remember that this is the first job he's ever had to interview for? It shows.
 

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I've been great.

End symptoms two weeks ago Monday; was released last Thursday from quarantine.

Now if I can get money coming in again; had three weeks no work, and now the major portal I work through has "You have time to approval; you have the payment terms; and we release the funds the next Friday" so a job could be up to about 38 days for a "Net 14" job ...

RwP
 

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So glad to see you're in the clear! Great news! (y)
 
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Glad to hear that you've recovered @RalphP !

What were your experiences like with the 'rona? Did you have any sort of difficulty breathing and required a breathing treatment, or were your symptoms just super mild?

As for income due to your 'rona situation, can you file for disability or unemployment or something for the period of time you were out?
 

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No problem breathing, although I kept coughing up phlegm with some blood in it.

I did have fever; used Tylenol (acetaminophen) to help keep it down.

Still wear down quicker than I used to, alas.

And no, alas; self employed requires quite a bit of **** to get unemployment in Louisiana, due to our wunnerful Gubner.

RwP
 

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How is your stepson recovering?
He's getting better; he's off O2, and he's no longer coughing or having to struggle to breath.

However, he gets tired very, VERY easily.

He's still in quarantine, though.

RwP
 

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Travis
It's been a pleasure chatting with you. I also agree that we are singing the same song but I would say we are using different dialects, not different languages. We aren't that far apart. I didn't assume you were a republican nor did I care as well. Even though I live in ground zero for socialism, SF, I'm from Texas so im a bit more of an outlier here than most in terms of view.

We both agree that covid is dangerous; the question is to what degree. Even with your family in healthcare, you aren't nearly as worried about it. Im farther down the rabbit hole.

As far as politics getting involved, I never understood how masks vs freedoms became a political issue. It's a health one. Just like with other issues, one party more than the other made this the story. This cannot be ignored and as news comes out, those in power made decisions based for self-serving, political and PR reasons vs scientific ones. Even if other Presidents have done the same (no president or multiterm senator has died penniless), noone has implemented such brazen looting to this degree. I might actually be ok with a little self dealing and enrichment had he been competent at his job. However, his response to the pandemic, lack of leading by example, and putting states against each other for PPE has been terrible.
This is what has gotten my panties in a bunch.

At one time, I was a registered republican. Why? Switching parties wouldn't affect my ability to vote yay/nay on the dozens of voter resolutions which are the key issues in CA voting (whoever gets elected will be more liberal for my taste). I did so because I wanted to pick a more moderate candidate with more experience than the shitpot we have for POTUS. Do you remember that this is the
I dont care as well how you vote but then you use paragraphs 3 and 4 to explain how I am wrong for voting for a POTUS I didn't vote for and why you change "political affiliations" when its convenient for you personally/monetarily/a way of life enhancing. **** rings hollow brother.

This site just like facebook, twitter, instagram and our news sites too has affirmed my intuition. Everyone just wants to win, at any cost. Common decency and common sense be damned.
 

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I dont care as well how you vote but then you use paragraphs 3 and 4 to explain how I am wrong for voting for a POTUS I didn't vote for and why you change "political affiliations" when its convenient for you personally/monetarily/a way of life enhancing. **** rings hollow brother.

This site just like facebook, twitter, instagram and our news sites too has affirmed my intuition. Everyone just wants to win, at any cost. Common decency and common sense be damned.
Sorry you see it that way Travis. TCCoA is pretty chill compared to the mayhem that is FB and Twitter. How you inferred that he accused you of voting for a POTUS that you didn't vote for from his reply is beyond me. He never made or implied any such accusation. You might want to read his reply again.

Meanwhile, in other COVID news ...

Wow! PPP duplicity at its finest. This story is quite the read.

 
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