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Discussion Starter #741 (Edited)
Sounds good to me. There is absolutely no difference. They were hauling people out of buildings into forced quarantine in Wuhan when this first started up. KNOWINGLY exposing others is criminal and should be treated accordingly.

There was a case on the news just tonight where these college kids were having a house party, the cops roll up to break the party up and one of the kids they ID comes up in the database as having tested positive for COVID. On the released body cam video the cops ask him, "Aren't you supposed to be quarantining at home?" He responds "Yeah, this IS my house." (gesturing towards the Frat house where the house party was going on). You can't make this sh!t up!
 

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I suspect that in order to get compliance out of selfish Americans, we are going to have to institute criminal penalties for willfully exposing others. NYC has started fining riders on their subways without masks. 37 states already criminalize willful HIV exposure. This may be the next step we need to take to protect society.
I don’t think this is a good idea. You think in this climate of percieved overzealous police activity, largely defined by decades of a war on drugs that quite literally been said “the next step we need to take to protect society“, people will comply because it’s against the law? And what about the homeless in the trains?

I am an avid mask wearer but I will not support this level of authoritarianism, it just gives right into the conspiracy theorists, riling them up, dividing us more, not solve anything because the people not wearing them still aren’t going to wear them, legal or not. Weed is still illegal there, people still do it openly. de Blasio really is a horses ass

Don’t let people on trains without masks, stop them right at the turnstiles, simple as that. Revoke their passes if they’re seen not wearing them, whatever. That’s far different from criminal penalty.
 

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Discussion Starter #743
I don’t think this is a good idea. You think in this climate of perceived overzealous police activity, largely defined by decades of a war on drugs that quite literally been said “the next step we need to take to protect society“, people will comply because it’s against the law? And what about the homeless in the trains?

I am an avid mask wearer but I will not support this level of authoritarianism, it just gives right into the conspiracy theorists, riling them up, dividing us more, not solve anything because the people not wearing them still aren’t going to wear them, legal or not. Weed is still illegal there, people still do it openly. de Blasio really is a horses ass.

Don’t let people on trains without masks, stop them right at the turnstiles, simple as that. Revoke their passes if they’re seen not wearing them, whatever. That’s far different from criminal penalty.
... then there's that. The airlines have already banned hundreds who have refuse to wear or properly wear masks.

I just spent a few days in rural NC, and wow, what a difference in attitude about masks and social distancing. They have a real "What pandemic?" Attitude. It boggles the mind.
 

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Yeah I think the airline approach is right, no shirt, no shoes, no mask, no service :) Make an obnoxious spectacle about it, THEN bring in fines/charges


I notice the same things in the rural areas, just on the outskirts the attitude totally changes. They make you feel like a real weirdo wearing a mask, which unfortunately is probably why many dont.
 

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I don't agree with government mandates to wear masks; there is that pesky personal rights thing.

I also don't agree with skipping the mask. I've been asked, "Don't you think you look stupid in that?" My reply is, "I'm 64; I don't give a **** what you think about how I look." :devilish::devilish:

I WILL be glad when some of the mask requirements are dropped; I have problems with heavy lifting with a mask on due to lung insufficiency (since July. Yah, I know the relationship.)

Not only do I get a laugh out of the masks hung under the nose - how about those with the "drive by shooting" valves on them?

RwP
 

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Its a mixed bag everywhere you go - but here there are signs posted on the windows before you enter buildings clearly stating that a face mask is required. For the most part, most people are following the rules where I live. There are exceptions for people with breathing difficulties which I think is perfectly fine as long as everybody else is following the rules.

I have to wear one for work, if OSHA comes through they could shut the jobsite down and the last thing I need is to be "that guy".
 

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Matt and Ralph:
I see both of you don't believe in mandating masks. Penalties/fines are OK by me.
However, what about the exact situation I outlined -

Q: What should we do about people who KNOWINGLY going out in public and to public events after they KNOW they tested positive?
UIUC is contesting with this now; it's not an isolated incident.


Personally, I think these people should suffer criminal penalties for violating quarantine/lockdown. If you can defend their actions under the aegis of "personal freedoms", I'd like to hear your justification.
-g
 

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Discussion Starter #748
I don't agree with government mandates to wear masks; there is that pesky personal rights thing.

I also don't agree with skipping the mask. I've been asked, "Don't you think you look stupid in that?" My reply is, "I'm 64; I don't give a **** what you think about how I look." :devilish::devilish:

I WILL be glad when some of the mask requirements are dropped; I have problems with heavy lifting with a mask on due to lung insufficiency (since July. Yah, I know the relationship.)

Not only do I get a laugh out of the masks hung under the nose - how about those with the "drive by shooting" valves on them?

RwP
Wearing masks - in public - is not about personal "rights" it's about protecting your fellow man and them doing their part to protect you. As the old saying goes your "right" to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. Americans are, for the most part, a very selfish, self-centered lot.

LOL, I love that response Ralph. It's so true.

If everyone wore a mask and wore it properly, there will be a better degree of protection than no masks at all. Even a mask with a drive by shooting valve is better than no mask at all. There's a poster at work, and I'll be back in the plant on Monday, that shows the effectiveness of wearing masks under various conditions. If it's still posted where I remember seeing it at I'll snap a picture of it and share it next week.

I understand wearing a mask is a real PITA. I'll be so glad when all this is over and we can shed the masks too. I have great lungs and still find myself mouth breathing some times just to move enough air through the mask to breath. If it gets that bad I'll remove myself from the room, step outside or away from others and remove my mask. At work we also have problems with the masks causing safety glasses (which we're also required to wear) to fog up. So, I'll either raise or lower the glasses so that I can see over or under them enough to see what I'm doing. But out of consideration for others around me and my own health I'll leave my mask in place.
 

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Matt and Ralph:
I see both of you don't believe in mandating masks. Penalties/fines are OK by me.
However, what about the exact situation I outlined -

Q: What should we do about people who KNOWINGLY going out in public and to public events after they KNOW they tested positive?
UIUC is contesting with this now; it's not an isolated incident.


Personally, I think these people should suffer criminal penalties for violating quarantine/lockdown. If you can defend their actions under the aegis of "personal freedoms", I'd like to hear your justification.
-g
Off the top of my head regarding that story, kick them out of college? suspend them? double secret probation? Are all the students at the drinking party 21 or older by the way? If not, why aren’t they fined or arrested for that alone?

I don’t know what the right answer is, or if there is an answer, but the ramifications and precident this will set is not good. Yesterday was the 19th anniversary of 9/11, and our liberties are still being violated by the answers to prevent another attack on that scale. Making something a sizable percentage of the population does illegal has never worked in this country without longterm side effects occasionally worse than the problem it meant to solve.

Honestly treat them like children, incentivize mask wearing. AT&T, Verizon et al can look at you through the camera(my ass they don’t do it anyway) and if it sees you looking at the screen without mask on in a enclosed space other than your home you rack up data charges. Wear the mask a lot, discount on a next gen phone. Businesses have all sorts of sales coupons and rewards anyway for no real substantial reason other than they coincide with a fake holiday or being a returning customer, have us actually earn them from a good act.
 

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Q: What should we do about people who KNOWINGLY going out in public and to public events after they KNOW they tested positive?
UIUC is contesting with this now; it's not an isolated incident.

Personally, I think these people should suffer criminal penalties for violating quarantine/lockdown. If you can defend their actions under the aegis of "personal freedoms", I'd like to hear your justification.
Depends how far it goes .. if somebody actually dies as a result of willful negligence, there may be legal penalties. ( California law differs from other states, so I cannot comment on anything except what is applicable here )

Now in the case of the party .. if that person knowingly had Covid and infected other people, he can be held liable.
If the Party attendees should not have been at the party due to quarantine / social distancing, they may not have a case.

Causation in Fact and Proximate Cause .. if the injury would have not occurred without the defendants act, then there is causation in fact. The limits of causation are determined by proximate cause .. if the family of the person who attended the party dies, the person who hosted the party would probably not be liable.

There would need to be a law or mandate passed by the city / county / state or feds in order to enforce fines and punishments for people not wearing masks. I remember there were fines that the county officials here could hand out early on for violators but never heard of anybody ever getting fined. At this point its more of a courtesy and there are people getting sick but the worst case scenario is death which is what the first part of my response relates to if in fact you were able to prove anything and bring forth a case to court.

At work we also have problems with the masks causing safety glasses (which we're also required to wear) to fog up. So, I'll either raise or lower the glasses so that I can see over or under them enough to see what I'm doing. But out of consideration for others around me and my own health I'll leave my mask in place.
Same here .. makes work very difficult, but I find that its a great excuse to not get anything done. :cool:
 

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We all agree that hosting a gender reveal party and burning up a good chunk of CA was not a good idea and should be fined.

I don't see why it's so hard to apply the same logic when someone is infected and they go out spreading it in public. Forget the masks for a second- these people should stay home.. an argument can be made to make sure someone/govt provides them with food supplies if necessary but I think most people can get by cooped up at home and cover their own expenses if they so choose. The problem is that they don't. Whether or not they are commiting another crime (underage drinking) is just a 'whattaboutism' and doesn't escape this question.

The most equivalent prior precedent is someone having an STD and knowingly not disclosing it to their partner. Sure, the partners might not get it but they are putting them at clear risk.

Can anyone defend these actions?

Apparently Ralph and matt aren't alone in not wanting masks to be legislated

Here's one piece of data that can justify you wearing a mask in public even if you don't want to have your freedoms hampered. Heres a medical opinion that says masks let a small amount of coronavirus through which could trigger immune responses but not enough to get sick. This will help you fight off covid if you get hit with a larger exposure later
 

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Let's veer a little bit.

How do you define what a person is? What makes someone, human?

After that ...

How do you feel about abortion?

At what point does it become murder instead of "My body, my rights".

Then.

How do you synchronize that belief, with requiring masks? My body, my rights.

Then.

How do you treat a fertile human having sex with another fertile human they're cross-fertile with, without protection to prevent pregnancy? (On either side).

Consider all of that together.

RwP
 

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It’s not a whataboutism when the same authority that is already looking the other way with a “eh, kids will be kids” attitude is now responsible for handing out fines or arresting them for a different crime. Same goes for a firework being used in a gender reveal in a state where they are illegal to begin with. What makes you think law enforcement that have it well within their power to enforce these laws will make any effective effort to stop everyone without a mask? I’m not defending the actions, I’m very skeptical of the responses.

Add to that that not every non mask wearer is carrying the virus. Yes, neither they or the police officer may know it, but they also don’t know if the brown person they stop and frisk is actually about to commit a crime either, do they?


This isn’t about me pushing ma’ freedoms as some proud red blooded American, but being realistic about what will probably actually happen -

-Non mask wearers still won’t wear masks
-Some non mask wearers will be fined or arrested for failure to comply
-The right wing news will have a field day pointing out the double standard of this while maskless looters are burning down a neighborhood because the same cops shot another black person (possibly, now because they initially approached them for not wearing a mask)
-coronavirus will still continue unabated.

Best case scenario is people already using masks are just more careful/nervous about wearing them properly, and the people currently with delusions of grandeur thinking eschewing masks is their Boston tea party moment might actually score a legitimate point. You’ll start seeing them with signs saying “he who chooses safety over liberty deserves neither“, and then Twitter will be all #cancelbenfranklin. 🤣
 

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It’s not a whataboutism when the same authority that is already looking the other way with a “eh, kids will be kids” attitude is now responsible for handing out fines or arresting them for a different crime. Same goes for a firework being used in a gender reveal in a state where they are illegal to begin with. What makes you think law enforcement that have it well within their power to enforce these laws will make any effective effort to stop everyone without a mask? I’m not defending the actions, I’m very skeptical of the responses.

Add to that that not every non mask wearer is carrying the virus. Yes, neither they or the police officer may know it, but they also don’t know if the brown person they stop and frisk is actually about to commit a crime either, do they?


This isn’t about me pushing ma’ freedoms as some proud red blooded American, but being realistic about what will probably actually happen -

-Non mask wearers still won’t wear masks
-Some non mask wearers will be fined or arrested for failure to comply
-The right wing news will have a field day pointing out the double standard of this while maskless looters are burning down a neighborhood because the same cops shot another black person (possibly, now because they initially approached them for not wearing a mask)
-coronavirus will still continue unabated.

Best case scenario is people already using masks are just more careful/nervous about wearing them properly, and the people currently with delusions of grandeur thinking eschewing masks is their Boston tea party moment might actually score a legitimate point. You’ll start seeing them with signs saying “he who chooses safety over liberty deserves neither“, and then Twitter will be all #cancelbenfranklin. 🤣
Matt
You keep going back to masks. We already disagree here which is fine. I'm asking about people who have been tested positive, are aware of the fact, and still venture out to public places - with a mask or not.


Care to defend them?
 

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No, they’re assholes.

Thing is though, unless they’re symptomatic there’s simply no knowing who has it to punish the act. The STD analogy is good in terms of the selfish act, but for policing it’s a totally different story, the carrier who transmits it knows exactly what they’re doing by going to a bar or wherever to try hooking up, and the person it’s transmitted to (hopefully)knows exactly who it was they got it from. Only the former is a guarantee with covid-19, but short of knowing the exact moment you contracted it and surveillance footage of that moment of who was nearby without a mask or social distancing, how do you prove it?

Edit: and really, there is the question of *should” they be punished? My quick instinct says yes, but on the other hand, if they contracted the virus to spread, are they not victims themselves? How far back do you go? The airlines? the wet market(or lab) in Wuhan? You can’t hang a murder rap, and the responsibility of a pandemic, on an individual far down the line for getting caught sneezing.
 

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Let's veer a little bit.

How do you define what a person is? What makes someone, human?

After that ...

How do you feel about abortion?

At what point does it become murder instead of "My body, my rights".

Then.

How do you synchronize that belief, with requiring masks? My body, my rights.

Then.

How do you treat a fertile human having sex with another fertile human they're cross-fertile with, without protection to prevent pregnancy? (On either side).

Consider all of that together.

RwP
Veering as per Ralph.
1) I don't believe fetuses are babies. They are still in development and settled case law dictates that it's a woman's right to choose. I wouldn't ask anyone I was involved with to have an abortion but I wouldn't restrict anyone's right to make a different choice. There are plenty of babies in the world, my wife was one of them, who needed homes that their birth parents couldn't provide. Why should we add more mouths to the table?

2) I don't see any conflict with this view of a woman being allowed to choose because their decision doesn't affect anyone else besides themselves and to some extent the birth father. In comparison, the right to wear a mask or not affects the rest of society.
I view smoking restrictions the same way. Dan can smoke if he wants but he shouldn't foist his external costs on the rest of us.

3) the decision to bone whomever they want, with or without protection, is the choice of two consenting adults (not going to give Epstein a pass). If one has HIV and the other chooses to engage in sex, it's on them (there are drugs to minimize transmission). However, if the hiv positive person doesn't inform the counterparty, IMO, that's fucked.
 

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No, they’re assholes.

Thing is though, unless they’re symptomatic there’s simply no knowing who has it to punish the act. The STD analogy is good in terms of the selfish act, but for policing it’s a totally different story, the carrier who transmits it knows exactly what they’re doing by going to a bar or wherever to try hooking up, and the person it’s transmitted to (hopefully)knows exactly who it was they got it from. Only the former is a guarantee with covid-19, but short of knowing the exact moment you contracted it and surveillance footage of that moment of who was nearby without a mask or social distancing, how do you prove it?

Edit: and really, there is the question of *should” they be punished? My quick instinct says yes, but on the other hand, if they contracted the virus to spread, are they not victims themselves? How far back do you go? The airlines? the wet market(or lab) in Wuhan? You can’t hang a murder rap, and the responsibility of a pandemic, on an individual far down the line for getting caught sneezing.
Transmission unawares could not and should not be prosecuted. On that we agree. You cannot go back to patient zero as there's no clear data on a path back with absolute certainty.

However, there are scumbags out there who were given positive test results. THEY KNEW and still went out. Its encouraging to hear that you see some liability on their part. I wish we would see real penalties here.

IMO, the real wobbler in my mind are the folks who have confirmed exposure to someone Covid positive and knowingly exposed others since they themselves were not tested and they don't show symptoms.
Here's a good example:

Now, I'm not saying that the family members of someone who are covid positive shouldn't go to the store -esp if they cannot afford delivery - but leaving town and dining out is just a big FU to society.


Care to defend them?

The only other don't ask don't tell situation I'm in the fence about is one I discussed with a doctor buddy this morning. If every doctor/nurse was tested and all positive cases resulted in pulling those staff, we might end up hitting a healthcare shortage sooner than expected. Apparently his system not alone in only testing staff if they show symptoms... Another friend confirmed this is true in my neck of the woods as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #758
Veering as per Ralph. I'm with Gunn.

Reminds me of this ironic conundrum that Republicans face. That awkward moment when they stop caring.

39313
 

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Veering as per Ralph.
1) I don't believe fetuses are babies. They are still in development and settled case law dictates that it's a woman's right to choose. I wouldn't ask anyone I was involved with to have an abortion but I wouldn't restrict anyone's right to make a different choice. There are plenty of babies in the world, my wife was one of them, who needed homes that their birth parents couldn't provide. Why should we add more mouths to the table?
Take the first part. What makes you think they're not human. Case Law - Case Law in Nazi Germany was that Jews weren't human. Case Law in the Jim Crow era was that blacks weren't human. You may want a better definition than "Case Law" there.

Second part. By extending that logic, you'd be in favor of unmasked people walking around, since Coronavirus has a close to .1.6% without comorbidities; zooms to 19.5% in the same study if you have heart disease, lung disease, or diabetes. (The latter included almost 50% of the study group were hospitalized. See the popular writeup at WaPo - https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/06/15/patients-with-underlying-conditions-were-12-times-more-likely-die-covid-19-than-otherwise-healthy-people-cdc-finds/ - or dig out the original CDC paper which is good reading if you have insomnia ...) After all, more people dead == less mouths to feed.

No.

I'm not recommending people walk around maskless. I'm just pointing out it's a logical extension of your statement. Might want to rethink both halves of this one to avoid the logical flaws.

RwP
 

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We are all bound by laws and rules. The flipside of everything are the consequences.

Gods law / Religion
Natural laws - The rules of gravity, physics, necessities for life (oxygen, water ) - the fact that a hungry Tiger WILL eat you.
Government / State / local laws and regulations - what has been decided with precedence by our ancestors
Society - Internet forum rules on conduct, and so on .. how we are "expected" to behave in a majority rule or the implementation of consequence
Self rule - what you decide is right and wrong, and how you interact with other people

What makes someone human ?
Existence .. and consciousness. You can argue that almost everything is "living" - animals, viruses, trees, most people.
Consciousness - the ability to think and reason / rationalize, or ability to learn the rules and their consequences. The awareness for self preservation and the preservation of other things.

Using the above laws and rules, you could make a determination on pretty much any subject or circumstance. Some rules and laws can be changed, but not all.

Ralph, you would need to prioritize the laws above to decide the difference between what is a human, living being, or right to choose on the topic of abortion ..

Gods law - what does your religion say .. because at some point we all might need to answer for our actions, I assume most people have this type of belief
Natural law - the baby's life is dependent on its mother until birth, or removal from its host .. it cant survive on its own until its ready ( and even after that - dependent on somebody else for a time ).
Is the mothers life in danger ? (personal note - we had three miscarries .. her body rejected the pregnancy)
Government - What does the law say. Your state might say the heartbeat rule means its a living being. Was this rape, incest, or forcibly coerced ? Is it legal where you live ?
The rules of society - What do other people think about this, how will this affect other people
Self rule - Sorry Ralph, its not your body / life / existence .. except that you can start a life, and your opinion on that matter might be considered by somebody else regarding that fact
 
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