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Discussion Starter #861
Between handling of the pandemic and not wanting to provide any stimulus / recovery package (which are supported by the WH and House), he seems to support everything else of this administration.
Is stimulus currently supported by the WH? He's flip flopped so many time's it's hard to keep track. I thought he had to be re-elected before that would happen. Some kind of conditional blackmail or something like that....

Let's see...

Trump tweeted Saturday: "OUR GREAT USA WANTS & NEEDS STIMULUS. WORK TOGETHER AND GET IT DONE. Thank you!"

And then on Tuesday, October 6, 2020 in a series of tweets we get:

“Nancy Pelosi is asking for $2.4 Trillion Dollars to bailout poorly run, high crime, Democrat States, money that is in no way related to COVID-19. We made a very generous offer of $1.6 Trillion Dollars and, as usual, she is not negotiating in good faith. I am rejecting their request, and looking to the future of our Country. I have instructed my representatives to stop negotiating until after the election when, immediately after I win, we will pass a major Stimulus Bill that focuses on hardworking Americans and Small Business.” - DJT Twitter posts - October 6, 2020.


You know, the last time I looked we were the UNITED STATES of America not the Red and Blue States of America.
 

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At first, I thought this was Trump is a market manipulator and uses his bully pulpit to shift the market.
Now, I suspect he's just an old, angry, man in mental decline and his handlers are doing their best to profit from the situation. Think of it like Nero's courtiers selling off Rome's firefighting equipment (not actual fact that I'm aware of, but you get the idea) while Rome burns.

if I was his personal valet, and a real dirtbag with complete disregard for my own health, I'd totally consider doing this. Establish a stock/option position, whisper something something Obama Gamestop while I pass him a 'roid infused cheeseburger, watch the tweets fly, and profit. Hell, with the right options strategy, you don't care if the stock moons or flames as long as it moves.
 

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Is stimulus currently supported by the WH? He's flip flopped so many time's it's hard to keep track. I thought he had to be re-elected before that would happen. Some kind of conditional blackmail or something like that....

Let's see...

Trump tweeted Saturday: "OUR GREAT USA WANTS & NEEDS STIMULUS. WORK TOGETHER AND GET IT DONE. Thank you!"

And then on Tuesday, October 6, 2020:


“Nancy Pelosi is asking for $2.4 Trillion Dollars to bailout poorly run, high crime, Democrat States, money that is in no way related to COVID-19. We made a very generous offer of $1.6 Trillion Dollars and, as usual, she is not negotiating in good faith. I am rejecting their request, and looking to the future of our Country. I have instructed my representatives to stop negotiating until after the election when, immediately after I win, we will pass a major Stimulus Bill that focuses on hardworking Americans and Small Business.” - DJT Twitter posts - October 6, 2020.

You know, the last time I looked we were the UNITED STATES of America not the Red and Blue States of America.
Right. But then just two days ago, he tweeted this:


and this is what I was referring to.
 

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Right. But then just two days ago, he tweeted this:


and this is what I was referring to.
You have to look at the context of that tweet, CDB. That was made <12 hrs after he halted negotiations between Mnuchin and Pelosi.

Clearly, that's a guy trying to appeal for votes; he's trying to make the case that the quickest path to $1200 more dollars in your pocket is to vote Trump. Hopefully, people see through this blatant appeal as its definitely up for debate if we can deliver.

TODAY he's asking for $1.8T and says he wants a bigger bill than EITHER the Dems or the GOP.
Last I checked, $1.8T is less than $2.2T but I guess we are in the post-factual world now.
 

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Discussion Starter #865
Agreed. He's grandstanding to literally buy votes. That's all this is. It's not about helping out the working men and women who've lost their jobs because of the pandemic.
 
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You have to look at the context of that tweet, CDB. That was made <12 hrs after he halted negotiations between Mnuchin and Pelosi.
https://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2020-10-06/trump-halts-covid-19-relief-talks-until-after-election
I was not aware of that one.

Like Ron said, it's hard to keep track of which way he's flip-flopped.

Wasn't the Dem's original proposal on the second stimulus $3.4T? All I know, that's a fuck ton of money.

During the Great Recession, someone said that it'd have been better and cheaper if the federal government gave everyone $1M with strings attached. Strings such as, recipients of the $1M had to buy a house, buy a [American] car, and buy all sorts of things, that would stimulate the economy even more than what was passed through the TARP bill. Wouldn't you all think that it'd be better and cheaper by giving the American people with a $150k/yr income ($300k/yr for married) - and phased down for income above that level - for the economy if everyone got money directly to use as they pleased than having to work out these huge elaborate deals? That sounds quite a lot like UBI right there. Doing that is "socialist", yet here we are hoping that we get another $1,200 check in the mail from these talks that are going nowhere until (likely) after the election.

Andrew Yang 2020

:LOL:
 

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It’s not socialist, it’s a freedom dividend 😁 Yang gang!

So how much of this 1.8 or 2.2 trillion is actually going to go to the people? 330,000,000 x $1,200 = 396,000,000,000. Is that other 78% for future months, or is it just going to prop up special interests, useless colleges and the airline industry that literally directly spread Covid-19?
 

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Discussion Starter #868
You’re talking about universal basic income (UBI) which is going to become more and more necessary as jobs are automated and AI takes over. It’s going go happen sooner and faster than anyone expects
 

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You’re talking about universal basic income (UBI) which is going to become more and more necessary as jobs are automated and AI takes over. It’s going go happen sooner and faster than anyone expects
$1M as CDB discussed would distort the economy overnight; I believe its also what a HS dropout would expect to make over their ENTIRE lifetime of employment
I would imagine houses being repriced from $300-400K to $1.3-1.4M instantly since what you are proposing is what the average household in the US grosses in 19-20 years (aka half a lifetime of employement)

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A more accurate target of a UBI is NOT to make the life of every american comfortable but to insure they can survive.... somewhere if not necessarily the place they choose to life. You won't be able to live in SF/Manhattan on a UBI but you should be able to afford rent+food somewhere. That income would be enough to enable people to get additional education, take more risks in employment/self employement/etc. The idea is that this added economic activity will grow our economy. Of course, a lot of the republicans HATE this idea unless it involves handouts to their investments.

Now, something must be done about healthcare. Not so people can get free cosmetic surgery or botox but so if they have an accident or fall sick (from say something like covid), they won't have to declare bankruptcy to get out from the medical debt.

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$218B was given to Americans as stimulus checks the first time around. I think it only helped half of all Americans (150M).
I personally think every american should have gotten the check as EVERYONES expenses rose but I don't see that happening.
The rest of the money went to prop other industries, etc.

Finally, the amount of PPP money that has been taken by politicians and other connected people collected is just shameful. think the most eggregious examples are where politicians took PPP money and then subsequently self-funded their own campaigns. Presumably, if you have enough money to self fund your campaign, you don't need any damned PPP money.
 

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I couldn't help but chuckle at, on Gunn's reference about time to earn $1M in various countries, the author's comment to earn $1M then "retire early" to a cheaper country to live.

My bias is towards Mexico given the weather, the amazing diving, the food, the proximity to the US, and the friendly people.
Perhaps he forgot to look forward to the drug cartel violence, poor healthcare/more widespread disease...
 

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Discussion Starter #872
Another alternative and/or supplement to UBI is raising the minimum wage to a livable wage. Something that's long over due. At least that way they're still earning their keep and not relying entirely on a hand out.

Regarding inflation, I'm so with you about the catastrophic costs of health care. A close second is education. The cost of college tuition, books and incidental expenses are out of control. Third is food. The cost of groceries has also really gone up but it's a hidden increase as manufactures have downsized their packages and content within those packages without changing the price. You're absolutely getting less for more.

Looking quickly through YT comments this grocery item MFG even had the chutzpah to mark an item "Now 20% fewer calories!" when they made the size 20% smaller!

 

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Giving out money always distorts the economy. So does putting parameters around the terms of employment contracts. The ever-increasing minimum wage is why we have self-checkouts at Walmart and kiosks at McDonald's. There are jobs that aren't worth paying somebody $15 an hour, and there are high school kids who are earning money to (well, you can go to the movies again, so let's go with that 😉) go to the movies and don't need "livable" wages.

After my soon-to-be-ex husband moved out, I was working in a grocery store earning less than $11 an hour, pretty much living off of child support, but at least it was a job that didn't require me to be away from my kids all week (like my "part time" analyst job that supported all five of us). I eventually found a job that pays better and has better hours, but I needed that crappy job (I came to hate it) for that year + and I can't imagine it would have been available if Lowes Foods had to pay $15/hour for somebody to hand out samples and recipes.
 

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Discussion Starter #874
Self-checkouts would have come along regardless of the rate of the minimum wage. Those cashier jobs are just the tip of the iceberg. You're missing the big picture Leneis. Those jobs aren't worth paying someone $7.25 an hour, or whatever the current minimum wage is, either when you can automate the job away completely.

That is part of the move towards automation that I was referring to. That transition is only going to accelerate in the years to come.

 

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Imo, the big picture is the federal government placing restrictions on private agreements 🤷 I'm FAR, FAR more comfortable with these things happening on a smaller scale. I don't believe the federal government should be doing half the things it's doing, and the constitution has kind of been pitched out the window because we think we know better.
 

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Discussion Starter #876
Imo, the big picture is the federal government placing restrictions on private agreements 🤷 I'm FAR, FAR more comfortable with these things happening on a smaller scale. I don't believe the federal government should be doing half the things it's doing, and the constitution has kind of been pitched out the window because we think we know better.
Can you expand on that? What do you mean putting restrictions on private agreements?
 

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I couldn't help but chuckle at, on Gunn's reference about time to earn $1M in various countries, the author's comment to earn $1M then "retire early" to a cheaper country to live.



Perhaps he forgot to look forward to the drug cartel violence, poor healthcare/more widespread disease...
1) It all depends on where you go for healthcare and honestly, what money you have.
2) I have had friends fall ill in mexico and the cost to see a doctor and get meds is really quite cheap... at least for Americans and in some areas.
3) The areas where Americans tend to congregate, like the tip of Baja Sur (Cabo San Lucas), it's pretty much like a cheaper San Diego/Hawaii. I was pretty surprised to see how many Americans live there year round. Its the opportunity for an American from the middle class to live at upper middle or higher standard of living.
Drug cartel violence is kept to a minimum (even if it does exist in these areas) for the tourism dollars and as far as disease is concerned, they've frankly done better than the US (infection rates per 100K ppl much 3.1 vs 14, death rates so pretty close 1:1519 vs 1:1553).
I've spoken to some friends who are practicing doctors about this and one thing that they mentioned is that culturally, there is MUCH more trust in the govt.
When one of my friends was in med school in TX and treated folks in LA, he said that the poor hispanic folk he would deal with in clinic would listen to what the doctor (or medical student) would say and agree to it. None of this "well I read webmd and on FB and think we should deviate from the standard of care here, here, and here" BS.

4) Realistically, no expat moves to the provinces with the highest poverty/worst standards of living (rural parts of Chiapas, Guerrero, Puebla, etc).
Medical Services in those areas are at a minimum and far worse than even the worst places in the US (rural Alaska, rural Appalachia, etc)
 

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Self-checkouts would have come along regardless of the rate of the minimum wage. Those cashier jobs are just the tip of the iceberg. You're missing the big picture Leneis. Those jobs aren't worth paying someone $7.25 an hour, or whatever the current minimum wage is, either when you can automate the job away completely.

That is part of the move towards automation that I was referring to. That transition is only going to accelerate in the years to come.

Agree. Technology already makes it possible to make those jobs cheaper and given that grocery stores work on such thin margins (historically <5%), they won't pay for employees for a minute longer than they have to. No business would because of "private agreements" they make with their shareholders to maximize revenues for the owners vs the employees. Now, some businesses operate differently like worker own co-ops, for example, and some have grown to a decent size (Publix, Winco, Greybar, and New Belgian Brewery come to mind), but even these will eventually need to be competitive so your typical starter jobs will go away.

Using the grocery example, a few years ago I visited the Amazon Go prototype b/c of a business mtg I had there. We were in and out within 45 sec to drag something for a lunch mtg. Now clearly, the buildout and operational costs of this prototype greatly exceeded the revenue (a similar sized convenience store would have 2 employees, this store had 6 with people explaining how to use it and constantly positioning products in the shelf/fridge slots so the cameras could see it. Also, the camera devices were IIRC in the ~$300/unit BOM cost and were deployed every few feet -- you can imagine how much this would snowball for a place like a super walmart). It worked though, and was a glimpse of the future whether you like it or not. Eventually, it will just be ONE person making sure everyone who enters has a device that's logged into their system, ONE employee to restock shelves (they will solve the positioning problem) -- if its not a robot, the system tracks your selections, and charges you when you leave the shop.

Since you are all about small government, Lenise, I hope you are equipping your children with life skills to enable them to succeed in tomorrows workplace. This means avoiding industries that will be automated away soon or are dying on the vine (retail, unskilled labor/factory assembly, drivers, etc). Even if they aren't cut out to be engineers or scientists, there are plenty of jobs which will pay better than minimum wage and give them a chance to move up the socio economic ladder. I hope you don't want them to struggle like you did.
 

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How do you know higher level careers won’t be replaced by AI? I see absolutely no reason engineering and science is safe.

Personally, I simply refuse to use self checkout or those kiosks at fast food places. It’s even not convenient, scanning and bagging my own groceries? I should get paid for doing that! And there’s always an item that just won’t scan, which necessitates an employee to assist anyway. I don’t know where people are expected to get “experience” when all these jobs disappear. Automation and AI is creating nothing but an uphill slog for coming generations, with absolutely trivial benefits to us at the present.
 

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Back to the thread - here's some information I found a bit interesting.

Specifically, pick Session 1 at the right. Watch the whole thing, but be DAMN sure to pay attention to 1:01:33 into it.


Then do some math - the infection rate that WHO says is best estimate, the number of humans on the Earth, the number of CoVID-19 deaths.

I HIGHLY recommend doing the math yourself.

RwP
 
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