TCCoA Forums banner

1 - 20 of 39 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,617 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Ok It seems there is some confusion about how many different converters ford made I have narrowed it down to 10 different converters.

#1 the common 12 inch converter probably found in every 94-95 tbird 91-95 crownvic,or town car with a 4.6. Also found in 302 based pre96 trucks that used the 4r70w and 5.0 liter mustangs. Round mounting lugs show that this unit has a poor lockup piston unless it was upgraded.

#2 typical markVIII 11&1/4 converter found in all 93-96 markVIII Again round mounting lugs show that these have the flimsy lockup piston.

#3 95-03 12 inch converter common stall Identical to #1 except it has a rectangular mounting lug and contains a larger more durable lockup piston. Found behind 3.8,4.6,5.0,engines

#4 95-03 12inch converter low stall found in 5.4 truck applications. All of these have a brazed pump and rectangular mounting lugs. They also use the larger sprag.

#5 97-03 12 inch higher stall 4.2 liter(also found in other misc applications) converter. These all have the rectangular mounting lugs, but were not brazed until 03

#6 11&1/4 96up markVIII 99-03 GT. Identical to #2 except it has rectangular mounting lugs and a more durable lockup piston.

#7 03up 4.6 liter applications Identical to #1 except it is completely furnace brazed and has the larger sprag

#8 03up 4.2 truck converter(may have additional applications) higher stall than the #7 otherwise identical

#9 03up 5.4 liter truck converter. Identical to #4 with a brazed turbine as well

#10 01 up marauder/mach1 converter Identical to #6 but is fully furnace brazed and has the larger sprag.

If that doesn't make sense look at it this way in 03 ford decided to furnace braze all converters and only use the larger sprag.
There are 4 different stock stall converters.
The lowest stall is the 5.4 liter truck converter (#4 & #9)
The next is the common 12 inch converter (#1,#3,#7)
The next is the 4.2 liter truck converter (#5 & #8)
The highest is the 11&1/4 converter (#2,#6,#10)

There are no different stall speeds of 11&1/4 converters. Any math that gives them different stall speed is based on input torque and not change in converter design.
The Marauder/Mach and all 03 up versions are the best to use because they are brazed and have a larger sprag assembly. However most street driven cars will never notice the difference either of these components make in any way. The smaller sprag assembly is good for over 500ftlb of torque. More than the sprag assembly PI uses in their single plate 9.5 inch converter and nobody is complaining about that.
If anyone wants pictures just tell me what you want to see and I will post it I just wanted to make the thread 56k friendly.
Alan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
456 Posts
Thanks to you, for your help 2 weeks ago...I have the mach 1 converter in my Mark VIII. It got installed today with my 98+ JMOD tranny.

I feel very confident in my choice, and I personally want to thank you for this thread. I feel good knowing I pretty much bought the best of what the factory had to offer. When the day comes that I get enough gonads to drag race this car again, I'll feel alot more confident in the transmission package I have assembled.

Thaanks again Alan. Nicely done.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Alan, thanks for clearing things up! One more question though, what does the 96-7 cars have for size? Type? You also state that basicly all 11.25 converters stall at the same rpm, given that everything else is the same (gears, torque, weight, ect.) but how are they different stall wise from what we have stock (assuming we have 12" as stock?
Sorry, guess that was 3 questions;)

Mods, you should make this a sticky or post in tech articles!

-Dave
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,617 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Some 96 and all 97 cars had the 12inch converter with the large lockup piston and rectangular lugs. (#3)
The 11&1/4 converters stall anywhere from 2100 as the lowest reading I have gotten up to 2600 at the highest. This is brake stall.
The 12 inch common converters stall 1500-1800 on average.
The 4.2 converters stall somewhere around 2000 on average.
Torque of the engine can make a huge difference in those figures as well.
Alan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
I have a 2001 Crown Vic with the AED s/c making 392 lb/ft peak engine torque at around 3200 RPM with a fairly flat torque curve (above 360 lb/ft) until 5300 RPM.

I understand that the K factor/rating has to do with the stall RPM at a given torque and that the k factor is very important in order to prevent flaring and provide normal streetable drivability. I am pretty sure my k factor in the stock converter is 155 (I think it is the converter described as #6 above).

I want to maintain what I have for drivability feel, yet I know that with the torque I am producing, I am slipping the stock converter under WOT conditions even though it is commanded locked through the programming (SCT Advantage/Pro-racer software). I bought a PI Stallion triple disc lockup converter to help pick up a few tenths at the track and provide some additional durability, but again I don't want to sacrifice the day to day feel driving down the road. The PI converter I bought is used (3500 miles) and has a stall speed of 3000 RPM. I am trying to find out what torque the stall speed is rated at so that I can determine the K factor and see how far off I am from the factory K factor. I may need to send in the converter to be adjusted to a different stall speed if necessary.

Does anyone know what the maximum K factor would be acceptable to help at the track, yet provide absolute smooth engagement during daily driving?

The car is probably 4300 lbs w/ driver and has 3.27 gears running factory 235/55/17's.

Any help would be greatly appreciated! ATrain recommended I talk to you Dirtyd0g about your work with converters. I also have a PM into Jerry at SCT's forums, so hopefully I can get a couple of opinions.

Todd
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,617 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
If the motor is making peak torque at 3200 I would use a 2600-2800 stall setup. The only way I can give you a rating of that PI converter is to inspect it. I can't give you a k-factor rating on that converter because it was originally a GM converter that was never rated that way. I can tell you exactly what it should stall to at 400ftlb of torque. I have been looking for one to do a write up on. So if you want to have it cleaned and inspected PM me and I will hook you up.
I did a write up on a PI singleplate,but it was a heap. I tried to be nice about it,but myself and the owner both decided it was not suited to be installed into his car. It ended up being returned to the original owner because it was sold as a triple plate.
Alan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Thanks Dirtyd0g!

So the PI Stallion converters are originally GM converters? Do they just change the outside housing with different mounting tabs and say its good enough for a Ford?

You can determine the k factor by n = k(sq rt of tq), where n is the stall speed correct? So how can I determine what the torque is at the rated 3000 RPM stall speed on the PI converter I am looking at?

Does Precision Industries have this information tied to a serial number or part number? Maybe I can find that information from the owner and give PI a call to figure this out?

I assume that to change the stall speed, I would need to send the converter back to PI?

I am curious about the one I am purchasing to make sure that it is indeed a triple disc and not a single disc. That is another reason I want the orignal paperwork.

Is there another, better alternative for me for less than $400-500? For example, a Marauder or Mach 1 converter modified or built up by someone such as yourself?

Thanks!

Todd
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,977 Posts
Yeah, not a bad idea to check with PI to see what that converter actually is. I was the one that bought a used "triple" myself a while back :rolleyes:

PI themselves told me it was not suited to be used on my car. Per PI, the single plate is not supposed to be used in any application that locks the converter at WOT.
PI makes their own front cover which is a really good cover. It is not wrong or unusual to use parts from other manufacturers, so don't worry about that part of it in the least. What parts they are using is what matters, not so much who made them.
I would love to see what is inside one of their triple plate units. I was disappointed when we opened up their single to say the least.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,617 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
HookedOnCV said:


Is there another, better alternative for me for less than $400-500? For example, a Marauder or Mach 1 converter modified or built up by someone such as yourself?

Thanks!

Todd
If you want I can inspect that PI for you to see what it will stall etc...
I build upgraded marauder units that sell for $400
I also build nice 10 inch units,but the price on them will vary from $525-$625
If your torque range is that low an upgraded Marauder unit would suit you best unless you are wanting lighter weight.
Alan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
"Torque range is that low"? Man that hurt my feelings! :( I thought I was doing pretty well for my setup. j/k ;)

Will an upgraded Marauder TC be able to lock (without slip) under WOT conditions as commanded and of course out on the highway in OD? I would rather stay with a known k factor that will not put me in a flare situation and give me normal feel in day to day driving.

Will it help me in maybe dropping my ET by 2-3 tenths?

I know that with the 9 1/2" PI Stallion the recommendation was to use the tripple disc because of the surface area needed to actually lock the converter under higher torque conditions. There is some gain there too from the reduced weight over the factory 11.25" converter. Isn't it something like 1/10th second quicker in the 1/4 mile for every 10 pounds of rotating mass removed?

Are there any other pros/cons of your version of the Marauder converter over the PI Stallion? At least I know what I am getting from you vs. some guy on eBay. Again, you came highly recommended from ATrain!

Thanks!

Todd
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,977 Posts
Any chance you have a dyno sheet on that car?
I think what Alan is saying about your low torque "range" is that you have a lot of torque coming in at lower RPM, not that you have low torque.
Alan has done a lot of work on supercharged applications such as lightnings and I highly suggest that you let him help you on your car if you can. Everyone that has a converter of his that I have talked to or heard about is very happy with the results.
I admit that I am chiming in for personal reasons too. I want to see inside a triple plate PI so I am hoping you let him look it over.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,617 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
By the calculations I have done I see no reason why my converter would have any problems in your car. I am positive that a single plate PI would not work correctly. To be honest it is a crap design that they used on the lockup piston. Read this thread where we discussed this issue in depth. http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47149

I was by no means bashing your engine by saying low torque range I was more referring to the fact that your engine peaks at low rpm(compared to other engines) and alot of stall would not suit you well. I would suggest 155-165k which will give you a stall range between 2800 and 3000. Honestly 2800 would probably suit you best. I would like to see a dyno sheet to determine that. The important thing is where your torque makes a dramatic rise. You want the converter to meet that rise and not peak torque.
Alan
 

·
High-Mileage 4.6L Thrasher
Joined
·
3,232 Posts
HookedOnCV said:
Will an upgraded Marauder TC be able to lock (without slip) under WOT conditions as commanded and of course out on the highway in OD?
Todd
Not no,but hell no.It'll last for a short time,then the lockup clutch will give up,and start to slip all the time.
I've done it with a N/A engine making right at 300 ft-lbs...you'll definitely do it with more than that.
JL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
OK I am a bit confused now. Maybe the dyno graph will help determine what is best for my application.



Again I'll take a smoother more driveable TC with slip before I'll accept flaring and harshness under light throttle conditions.

I have a couple of choices here...

I can get the used PI Stallion converter, hope it truely is a triple disc rated at 3000 RPM and send it to you, Alan to look it over for me. If you determine that 3000 RPM stall speed isn't the best for my application, I would end up sending it to PI to have the stall speed adjusted (not sure of the cost).

Or, I could abandon the PI converter and go with your modified Marauder converter.

What is going to give me the best ET improvements without sacrificing my day to day driving experience? If the stall speed is adjusted to the correct RPM for my car, is the PI Stallion TC the best choice? There is for sure a weight advantage, but is the durability as good? Is the k factor too high? Will I get flaring?

Keeping in mind that I can adjust the pressures under varying load conditions with the SCT software, can I make the PI converter work WELL in my car?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,617 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Johnny Langton said:

Not no,but hell no.It'll last for a short time,then the lockup clutch will give up,and start to slip all the time.
I've done it with a N/A engine making right at 300 ft-lbs...you'll definitely do it with more than that.
JL
Please tell us more. Alot of variables control lockup clutch life.
What year valvebody did you have? The pre99 valvebody's had a very restricted lockup flow. It can be improved slightly ,but the 99up valvebody is definately better.
How hot were you running that? Heat will destroy any lockup clutch.
Are you driving like 120mph or something cruising on the highway. Why would "torque" make a difference in the load on the converter under cruising conditions?
What type of friction lining was used?
Was the lining bonded to the front cover or the lockup piston?
Was the front cover welded solid or did it still have a lockup plate welded to the front cover?
How many miles did it last before it failed?
How much apply area did the converter have?
Was the transmission contaminated otherwise?

HookedOnCV said:

Again I'll take a smoother more driveable TC with slip before I'll accept flaring and harshness under light throttle conditions.

I have a couple of choices here...

I can get the used PI Stallion converter, hope it truely is a triple disc rated at 3000 RPM and send it to you, Alan to look it over for me. If you determine that 3000 RPM stall speed isn't the best for my application, I would end up sending it to PI to have the stall speed adjusted (not sure of the cost).

Or, I could abandon the PI converter and go with your modified Marauder converter.

What is going to give me the best ET improvements without sacrificing my day to day driving experience? If the stall speed is adjusted to the correct RPM for my car, is the PI Stallion TC the best choice? There is for sure a weight advantage, but is the durability as good? Is the k factor too high? Will I get flaring?

Keeping in mind that I can adjust the pressures under varying load conditions with the SCT software, can I make the PI converter work WELL in my car?
The flaring you are referring to would be lockup slippage I assume. I have not yet experienced lockup slippage on one of my converters that I have made my clutch modifications to. I am not saying it is not possible because everything has it's limits. A good friend of mine has been running a converter for about a year and half on a 98 boss mustang making about 320 rwtq. He has blown his rearend and now has a rod knocking but the transmission and converter still have bright red fluid and work perfectly. He has about 16k on it since we installed the converter and a factory tech valvebody.
Torque is a contributing factor to lockup force,but weight is the biggest. I know for a fact that several lightning pickups are running a clutch only 2 square inches bigger and have been doing so for years with no problems. Stock paper lining especially with grooves in it, is junk and will not last.
These clutch linings must be replaced with kevlar or carbon based clutches. A little piece of tree just doesn't do the job. Also a thin based lining is a must because thicker linings may shear and contaminate the transmission. I would suggest the high carbon lining. It handles heat very well.The adverse effect of the carbon is that it is harder than the steel piston it applys against. Ford learned this on powerstrokes and stopped using it because after about 60k the pistons are worn pretty badly. Of course they pull alot more weight and work considerably harder than your converter will.
Honestly I'd like to see that triple plate PI unit, but I don't know how well you will like the rattle. As far as stall goes the 9.5 inch gm based units are fairly easy to reconfigure.
I think the stock stall converter will be perfect for your engine. It should stall 2600-2700 on your engine.
You would need a good cooler to keep the transmission and converter cool. You will also need a 99up valvebody.
As far as daily driving I don't see where it would be any different regardless of the engines torque. You aren't going to be running WOT for very long. Extended periods of WOT would eventually create heat and cause slippage, but realistically are you going to be able to be at WOT for very long on the street? Even on the track it won't be over 15 seconds.
rant=on
JL has a very good point from a racing point of view,but on a streetable level. I believe the configuration I am using is very well suited. I have spent years working on my designs and changes. If something needs to be done to improve them I would love to find it. I have seen many aftermarket converters using stock or paper linings fail. Even the PI singleplate had a cheap paper clutch. I have yet to see anyone besides me putting the time and effort I do to strengthen the front cover either. The stock front cover has the friction bonded to a plate that is welded to the front cover from the inside.
If you look to the inside of this clutch you will see a laser weld the holds the plate to the front cover. You will notice on the outside that the plate is not attached anywhere else. Under extreme pressure this plate will warp and fail the clutch.

I fully weld that gap and install a larger clutch that completely covers the entire area. This prevents the warpage and increases surface area of the clutch. This picture shows an identical front cover after I have made these modifications.

I will try to put together some pictures of what I have seen done to other converters and why the way I build them is considerably better. I don't want to build something that doesn't last I like permanent solutions not
cheap replacements. If there is something I can do to improve quality I will do it. I personally don't like 245mm(9.5inch) Gm converters. The only true advantage of using them is that they are very easy to restall because there so many combinations of them that gm used with different engines. That and they are truely the most readily available core around. I am not lying when I say I have over 1000 of them at my disposal. As does every junkyard in the country. They are the cheapest cores you can buy,period. The sprag in them is a piece of crap and is only rated for 400ftlb of torque maximum. There are fixes for the stator problem,but I have yet to see and Art Carr or PI converter that used the better components. They talk about it,but do they really do it? The singleplate I cut open had a stock sprag,but PI brags about how much better there's is than stock. PI lies so much in there Truth statement it is ridiculous.
Here is a statement from PI in the truths on converter pricing.
You cannot use existing OEM parts such as stock covers, clutches, lining, hubs, etc. and get a quality part that will operate correctly and dependably in a high performance street torque converter.
The only part in that PI converter I cut open that were not factory parts were the front cover and the stator inner race. The front cover is nice. The race just converts GM spline to Ford spline. The turbine hub was a stock replacement. The lockup piston was a welded up version of the worst piston ford ever made. The rest of the converter was brazed FWD Gm common parts. Also the PI converter used a common cheap lining. So much for the truth about PI quality. I have nothing to hide if my product lacks something I will gladly fix it. I build every converter I sell to the specification I tell the customer they will get. There are no I'm sorry I shipped you the wrong Item. There is no well you really didn't need all of that so we built yours a little cheaper. Call them and ask to speak to the guy who is building your converter. Ask them to give you internal pictures of what is inside "your" converter. They sell a converter off the shelf. I have heard the horror stories. How many people got their converter right the first time? How many people paid for a triple plate converter with a Heavyduty sprag and triple plate lockup piston and recieved something that looked like the components here.http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50811
Have a good look at what is in that thread. Was there a reason they butchered the stator? Did they need to make all those holes in the turbine to decrease the converters efficiency? Couldn't they have found a better lockup clutch than the biggest piece of junk ever made? Ford scrapped it ,but PI thinks it is strong enough for their customers.
Lets have some real truth here shall we?
Rant=off
Alan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
LOL!!! OK, OK, so I see your point about PI converters. So tell me why I should buy that one and send it to you for your review??? I am now thinking that I should pay the guy his eBay re-listing fee and order the Marauder one from you. The entire reason I searched here for more information is becuase I knew TCCoA was a good resource. I have heard of several people (Crown Vic/Town Car owners) complain about the PI converters...maybe now I know why.

You mention "rattle" from the triple disc lockup PI. THAT is exactly what I don't want! The "flaring" as I understand it is at low RPM, the stall or k factor is too high and the converter won't even try to push the car or hold it going up a slight incline at idle. It is hydraulically neutral. As you rev up the engine there is no load until the TC builds up enough speed to "engage". The engine revs quickly since there is no load and you end up with a slamming sensation as the TC catches. It shocks the entire drivetrain. It can easily break the tires loose and you don't have a controlled takeoff under normal driving conditions on the street. Here in the Minnesota winters, traction is already an issue and controlled starts are a must.

I am not looking to have a race converter built...I want something that can lock (not slip the clutch) better than a factory converter when commanded by the EEC so that I can trasmit more of the power to the rear wheels. I still want smooth transmission of power under light throttle conditions. Maybe the kevlar is a better choice for me? I only race a couple of times a year, so 99.995% (give or take 0.1% ;) ) of the time is normal driving...OK I do open it up around the street occasionally but not all the time! I would rather have durability.

I assume that since my car is a 2001 it would have the newer valve body. I have already done the J-Mod to the valve body.

So Alan, let me ask you this...with your modified Marauder TC, would I see an improvement in my ET, and/or durability over my factory converter? Any idea what kind of ET gains from your past customers?

I really do appreciate the time you are taking to educate us on this. It is very enlightening.

Todd
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,617 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Because the stall is the same as factory(in your application) I doubt you will see but 2-3 10ths difference in your 1/4 et. With that torque curve it should be right where you can use it best.
The verdict is still out on that hopefully Leland Jacobson will get to the track and enlighten us on that.:) I have done testing on 10 inch units I build with great results ,but in this case you are using the same stall.
The clutch I use has 2 times the surface area as the stock clutch and as I mentioned the front cover is completely modified to correct it's weakness's.
The bang you are talking about is due to a small diameter converter. They usually engage much firmer than a larger diameter. Especially when they are higher stall. The more stall the harder the bang. The only reason I suggest you buy that one and send it to me for review is so that I can take some pictures and show everyone. :) The flaring at low rpm would be assisted by increasing line pressure there. The down side to that is it will make the shifts hard so you really need a tune that can work all of that out.
Alan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,977 Posts
Edit: New info on the PI converter we are talking about led me to edit this.

It is very easy to be critical of what you don't know about and that goes both ways here so fair is fair. Most people don't know anything about what Alan does to his converters and the only PI I have seen inside of is a single plate. Going from what I saw in that PI, I am very critical of their product. That converter wasn't worth maybe half what it is listed for and would have failed horribly in my application. I am truly hoping that they at least improved the internals on their triple to justify the extra cost of it.
The only way people here will find out is if one is actually inspected and the pictures are posted for everyone to be able to look at.
Anyone know where Alan can get one to inspect?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,977 Posts
Hey, HookedOnCV. You didn't buy this converter on eBay did you?
If so, that list price he quotes is for a single plate and one of those won't do anything near what you need. It is the only one that I see that sold recently and I assume that it is the one we are talking about considering the eBay username matches your username here.
Did you ask the guy who is selling it if it is a triple plate clutch? If you did and he said it was but it really isn't, you have a lot of recourse. If you didn't and it isn't, you are at his mercy.

Thanks
Darrin
 
1 - 20 of 39 Posts
Top