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PI swap due to higher compression although I would assume it's not much difference
 

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PI Head swap?

the question is subjective, bigger maf, cams, etc....Numbers will be close to each out without all of the misc secondary crap.
 

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just as these guys said, it depends on if anything else is being done to either scenarios....but completely stock for stock, i'd say the PI head/cam/intake swap on an NPI shortblock will be a couple ponies ahead of the PI engine swap, but not by much
 

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My recollection is that EricZ had around 245 to the wheels and was running mid 13's with a PI head/cam/intake swap ... he had the usual "back in the day" bolt ons - '03 MAF, underdrive pulleys, colder plugs and T-stat, 373 gears, J-mod tranny, a higher stall converter, and ran 93 Octane pump gas - he also had a Jerry tune to support all that, but I venture to say that no one is gonna swap heads and intake or do a GT engine swap, and NOT add the usual bolt-ons and get a Jerry chip or tune. Eric may have added Kooks, as well, but the gain from headers on a 4.6 N/A application isn't all that much.

At the time, I was running GB N/A with Renegade PNP heads, Comp Cams, Kooks, high stall converter (sort of), all the above bolt ons, and a Jerry tune. My dyno numbers were very close to Eric's, and Eric's track times were a bit better than mine (I had some TC and tranny issues). And my route was way more expensive that Eric's. The PI swap is pretty cheap ... and the compression bump gives a big boost in performance ... back in the unleaded fuel days, increasing compression was what everyone did first to improve performance....

Five or so years ago there were some guys in Florida running Exploder and GT swaps with the bolt-ons, and none of those cars came close to 245rwhp or mid 13's .. There were a lot of verbal threats about catching GB, but no one ever backed them up at the dyno or the track ... JL, whose set up I mimicked, myself and Eric with his PI head swap were the only N/A guys in that ball park that I can recall ... no one with a straight GT or Exploder engine swap was posting over 235rwhp or 13s ... Rob tried real hard with his GT swap, but never caught GB ...

I've been out of the loop for awhile, now, so maybe the stock GT engines you can get now will pull 245 on the dyno with bolt-ons, but when I was running N/A none of them came close to the power Eric got with the PI headswap ...

I personally think that dollar for dollar and hour for hour of install and set up time, the PI head swap is still the best bet ... Imagine if Eric had PNP'd his heads and added Comp or some other aftermarket cams ... GB would have been as far behind him, as the GT and Exploder guys were behind GB ... Hindsight being 20/20, I'da saved a lot of money and got the same results going the PI head swap route... but instead, I joined Jim O'Neil's and JL's "crusade" to validate NPI heads ... Actually I'm still crusadin' -- I've got NPI heads on GB now, pullin 547rwhp with a blower ....

The PI head swap being the best bet is just my opinion based on the experience I had running N/A five or six years ago, and the dyno and track data available then ... There are a lot more options now ... Heck, you can put a PI intake on NPI heads and gain a bunch of power ... that option was not available when I started modding N/A ..

You guys that are just joining up now, and have all these different options have modular pioneers like JL, KD, Big Scott, Jerry, Jim O'Neil, Mike Siska, ... and a bunch of others, to thank for having those options ... Oh yeah, let's not forget Florida's own Timb, who did the first ever Exploder swap into an MN12, added an SVO blower on to the stock bottom end and put over 100K miles on that combination without any problems ... Driven by the reality that, unlike Mustang owners, MN12 owners could not just trade our cars in for the PI version .. they found ways to put power into our obsolete platforms ... The other thing was that all those guys freely passed out the tech to others... two weeks after I joined TCCoA, JL and Scott were passing info on to me, and Timb invited me down to North Palm Beach to see what he had going on ... Thanks guys ... :bowdown:

But I digress .....

:cool:

-mike
 

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And you forgot just 1

A PI Cam, PI Headswap, Bullitt intake stocker with bolt ons and JBA Headers that made 257 HP and went 13.2's.

The same car that went 13.9-14.0's on the BONE STOCK 96 engine with bolt ons.
 

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A PI Cam, PI Headswap, Bullitt intake stocker with bolt ons and JBA Headers that made 257 HP and went 13.2's.

The same car that went 13.9-14.0's on the BONE STOCK 96 engine with bolt ons.
Oh, I didn't forget you, but I actually met Eric in person, and saw, and raced against Eric's car ...

No one, including you, could ever explain the physics behind why your car got 15-20 hp more, and ran a half to a full second or so faster than EVERYONE else with the exact same mods on paper. Out of all the guys that were adding bolt-ons and tunes to their bone stock 96's (including me) and 97's, no one else got into the 13's without PI cams. There has always been some doubt raised by our Texas contingent about your claims, and I preferred not to raise that controversy again. Most all of that happened just before my time here, and I would have been posting beyond my actual experience. My intention was to post up some suggestions and results that I, personally have witnesses - results that can, and have been duplicated by others. No one yet has been able to duplicate what you were able to do with you Cat. Some might call it 1"Magic"Cat ....

I personally have no opinion. I like to be everyone's friend (well mostly). While I have oft wondered why I had to do what I had to do, when you didn't, I keep those questions to myself .. There are, however, some others that have vehemently, verbally expressed their doubts ...

No one has ever questioned Eric's results ... They are reasonable and repeatable by mortal man.

:D

-mike
 

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Mike,

Eric has been part of this group up here for years. His car with the mods was extremely quick. I drove it several times.

As far as the swap, Eric's car had the same set up as mine except for the Bullitt Intake stuff, little different converter and gearing. As far as my stock set up, that was a long time ago. The set up in the car was no different than after I put the PI set up in it

Granted, it has been the oddball as far as stock times and bolt ons!

Mike Siska can attest to what he found when we pulled the stocker out the following week to drop the PI conversion/Bullitbird swap in it.

The only real comparison I have had with the car and an aluminum swapped car was with Hans in 2004 at the TCCOA Nationals in North Carolina. Hans had an aluminum block, Ported NPI heads and Cams, running a short belt, (If any) and no back seat if I recall correctly. I was running mine with all belts, full interior, etc. We ran on the same track same day. His car ran 13.1-2's, mine went 13.4's-5's, i tripped a 13.39 on one pass. We went heads up door to door on one pass. I think his ran a 13.2 - Mine a 13.4. Not sure what tires he was running but I was running drag radials. Temps in the mid 70's with a headwind.

Mine later went 12.3-4 on the juice and the slicks.

The bottom line is as you've mentioned, either one is worth the time and effort in performance. Not sure which is actually less expensive. Either case its a win/win situation for those wanting to do the swap.

Regarding the swap, I'm still not convinced that the PI head swap is better than dropping in an Aluminum PI motor when you factor in the weight and HP advantages.
 

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Steve:

Like I said, I personally never understood how your stock car did it, but I have no credibility gap with anyone connected to Mike Siska ... I knew Eric was part of your group .. I was disappointed that Mike and you and some of the others did not show up that year with Eric at the Super Heavyweight Shootout ... Actually JL said he was gonna try to get there that year, but didn't make the trip ... too bad, if he and all the Mid-Atlantic guys had made it, there might have been some real fireworks ... Actually, I'm pretty sure Blake Vortech DID make it from Texas that year, and ran with the Big Dogs .... we haven't had a turnout like that since '03 ...



It's where I met Scott in person, and watched Joel (rest his soul) blow up another intake ... I think Andy hit another deer on the way down there ... quite a group. The Impala guys welcomed us, and the folks at the steak house where we had the post-race dinner were glad to see us ................ leave..... ;)

I knew that Mike had a hand in Eric's car, and your's. He's had a hand in Eric's new Vortech setup. Mike actually helped Scott out with GB's first fuel delivery system early on. He's one of those early MN12 pioneers that has always offered his experience and knowledge to others.. He offered me some advice on using tubes in my Drag Radials, and I took it... When Mike talks, I listen....

I haven't heard much from Mike or Eric lately, I suppose they're more active on the Mid-Atlantic boards ... I think I heard that Mike's car was for sale at one point .. I kinda wonder how Eric's car is doing now - if he got all the bugs out of the supercharger set-up ??? Now that GB is finally coming home, it may be time for a re-match ..... Maybe if MM&FF holds the MN12 Shootout they said they were gonna, or maybe at the SC or TCCoA Nationals, or maybe up in Commerce at SSHS 9.

You kinda helped me make my point - the PI headswap cars run about the same as the NPI engines with PNP heads and aftermarket cams like GB - weight, and other mods being equal, they pull around 250rwp and turn mid to low 13's.

No one I ever ran against who had a straight GT or Exploder swap was as powerful or as fast as that ... And a few guys tried real hard to be ... Rob, down here in Florida, had a GT swapped bird, and he tried everything and couldn't match GB. I was running a bogus tranny at the time - a "Bulletproof" 4r70w that was actually a '95 stock trans with a tailshaft lube, and a PI single disc, stalled at only 2800. I often wonder what GB would have done N/A, with a REAL upgraded trans and and a properly stalled TC, after I put the Compcams in her and Jerry tuned her ... 12's maybe ... We'll never know .... ah, and you can hear Bruce in the background singing "Glory Days" ...

Once again I digress, I have never seen anyone with a straight GT/Exploder swapped MN12 post that they got 245rwhp, or ran in the 13's after the swap ... and until someone does, I'm gonna have to stick with my opinion, based on the data I have seen, and my own experience, that the PI headswap provides more hp and is, dollar-for-dollar, the most effective mod.

What I did worked great, but cost a lot of money, and it is not easy to get your hands of a pair of Jim O'Neil massaged NPI heads anymore.

:cool:

-mike
 

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Aaron K. was into 13's on just the explorer swap.
Really??? He never ran 13's at any of the events I attended with GB at Moroso ... of course the swap was pretty new then, and all the bugs were not out of it ... I don't think he had "proper tires" at the time, either - but I think I offered everyone the chance to use mine ... no takers, except Rob, I think ....

I stand corrected.... that's one ... Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa ..

-mike
 

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I think Johnny V did a straight PI swap that had smoothed out runners and stock manifolds... want to say it put down like 235-240 at the wheels with some bolt ons and dipped into the 13's back in 2000.

Pete
 

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Really??? He never ran 13's at any of the events I attended with GB at Moroso ... of course the swap was pretty new then, and all the bugs were not out of it ... I don't think he had "proper tires" at the time, either - but I think I offered everyone the chance to use mine ... no takers, except Rob, I think ....

I stand corrected.... that's one ... Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa ..

-mike
yep, 13.991........on street tires and 3.73s
 

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Since this thread has been derailed already...

My car is fairly close to 13s at 14.15 on DRs. It has the explorer engine swap with comp 262 cams, 3.73s, 02 stang MAF, ported exhaust manifolds, 2.5" true dual exhaust, and a stock 95 trans with a large bolt pattern stock TC from a grand marquis. The other weight reduction was removal of the pass and rear seats. It put down 233 rwhp on Precision Autosports' dyno in 100* heat. I have NO other bolt-ons like pulleys or TB/plenum, and my shift points were all jacked up that day at Kil-Kare too.

Henry74 on here ran a best of 13.98 slipping on street tires. His PI head swapped car put down 209rwhp on Precision's dyno. His car just has the PI head swap, 3.73s, true dual exhaust, and a jmodded 99 trans with a 3500 stall DD TC. I don't think he has any other bolt-ons either. I'm waiting to see what he runs on a good set of tires. I don't really think that's too bad considering he doesn't have a ton of mods.

-Rob
 

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Since this thread has been derailed already...

My car is fairly close to 13s at 14.15 on DRs. It has the explorer engine swap with comp 262 cams, 3.73s, 02 stang MAF, ported exhaust manifolds, 2.5" true dual exhaust, and a stock 95 trans with a large bolt pattern stock TC from a grand marquis. The other weight reduction was removal of the pass and rear seats. It put down 233 rwhp on Precision Autosports' dyno in 100* heat. I have NO other bolt-ons like pulleys or TB/plenum, and my shift points were all jacked up that day at Kil-Kare too.

Henry74 on here ran a best of 13.98 slipping on street tires. His PI head swapped car put down 209rwhp on Precision's dyno. His car just has the PI head swap, 3.73s, true dual exhaust, and a jmodded 99 trans with a 3500 stall DD TC. I don't think he has any other bolt-ons either. I'm waiting to see what he runs on a good set of tires. I don't really think that's too bad considering he doesn't have a ton of mods.

-Rob

Hmm... How's it been derailed already? I think we're all talking about the same thing here. PI headswaps, PI motor swaps!

BTW, I think you were the two guys I saw and talked to about your cars at the shootout in Ohio last fall, would that be correct?

And as I told you then, they both ran really well. I felt out of place a little since I didn't have mine there. But I had fun running the 4 X 4 SC F150 anyway LOL!!!
 

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Once again I digress, I have never seen anyone with a straight GT/Exploder swapped MN12 post that they got 245rwhp, or ran in the 13's after the swap ... and until someone does, I'm gonna have to stick with my opinion, based on the data I have seen, and my own experience, that the PI headswap provides more hp and is, dollar-for-dollar, the most effective mod.
hey mike, i have a bone stock internal 99 gt motor in my car, so far its gone 13.8 @ 96 this is a stock PI engine w/ 60k miles on it. nothing has been done to it, the cam covers were off only to be painted but thats it. im working on making this the fastest n/a stock pi swapped out there. i do have the supporting drivetrain mods to go with it, sorta, have a 4.10 instead of a4.30 gear.

and JohnnyV is without a doubt the one that convinced me to put the PI engine in my car vs putting another npi engine in when i blewup the original npi engine. i think, and i have cant say for sure, but he was the first person on tccoa to do the pi swap and i think i was the 3rd. Scott had done a bit of work on this because he was the one there helping me with some of the mods to get this little winsor into my bird
 

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As long as we're comparing...

I've got everything from the PI mustangs (99-04) from the air filter to the heads. the TB been half-shafted, and ported and upper plenum has been ported. Underdrive pullies, 180* T-stat, colder plugs, etc.
Mark VIII TC, J-mod
3.27's

My best is a 14.66. I know the 3.27's are slowing me down, and I'm limited to using 91 octane here in good ol' KS. On a dyno in KC last year I got a best of 223hp 257 tq... I think the rear wheels were slipping, I was on stock 225/60/16's at the time. that was also using a Lighting 80mm MAF instead of the 04 Mustang GT MAF. and of course with the newer MAF I got a slightly tweaked tune... haven't had it on the dyno since but I'm at least at 230 now. I'd sure like to get closer to 13's
 

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Steve,

I agree, this thread is surprisingly "on topic" compared to most.

:D


Keith,

When I met you at the Shootout, you were strictly a "bottle guy." I suppose that posting track times isn't really the way to compare mods. Too many variables. A loose TC and lower gears shave a lot of time, and doesn't necessarily reflect how much power has been gained with a swap. What are your dyno numbers on that stock PI engine? Cougie has had so many "morphs" it's hard to keep track - I think Scott did a high compression N/A morph at one point pretty early on, I'm thinking he used PI heads on an NPI bottom, but I'm not sure.


Traveler,

Your dyno numbers and track times are pretty much in line with the PI swap guys I was around back in '03. Assuming what the PI swap guys here are saying is true, lower gears and a loose TC and proper tires, should get you to 13's.

-


Whatever power and torque a GT motor pulls in an automatic Mustang, should be what it pulls in a bird, no?? Just yankin' the motor out and putting it into an MN12 isn't gonna magically increase the power the engine makes. I ran against alot of basically stock Mustangs at Moroso, and most of them were running in the low 14's .. I remember 'cause I though it was kinda funny for them to get the "Dial-in" head start against "Grandma's" T-bird. Generally speaking, T-birds are 600 pounds heavier than GT's, so 'splain to me how taking the stock PI motor out of a Mustang and putting it in a T-bird, without significant other drivetrain mods, is gonna take a T-bird into the 13's??

Surely there must be some dyno numbers for stock, automatic PI GT's posted on the 'Stang boards. What kind of power are they getting?? I would think that those numbers are the numbers one can expect if one takes that stock PI motor out of the Mustang, and installs it in T-Bird/Cat. I'm thinking that there isn't any mystery here ...

-mike
 

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Hmm... How's it been derailed already? I think we're all talking about the same thing here. PI headswaps, PI motor swaps!

BTW, I think you were the two guys I saw and talked to about your cars at the shootout in Ohio last fall, would that be correct?

And as I told you then, they both ran really well. I felt out of place a little since I didn't have mine there. But I had fun running the 4 X 4 SC F150 anyway LOL!!!
I meant it derailed as far as going from the simple question of what makes more power, to a discussion of power levels, mods, ETs, etc. However, I think this has become one of the best threads on the boards for this discussion.

Yes, that was me and Rick that you met at the shootout. I was a bit disappointed when you didn't bring your Cougar. I really wanted to see it in action. Hopefully you'll be back with it this year. Thanks for the advice you gave me too.

Your dyno numbers and track times are pretty much in line with the PI swap guys I was around back in '03. Assuming what the PI swap guys here are saying is true, lower gears and a loose TC and proper tires, should get you to 13's.

-


Whatever power and torque a GT motor pulls in an automatic Mustang, should be what it pulls in a bird, no?? Just yankin' the motor out and putting it into an MN12 isn't gonna magically increase the power the engine makes. I ran against alot of basically stock Mustangs at Moroso, and most of them were running in the low 14's .. I remember 'cause I though it was kinda funny for them to get the "Dial-in" head start against "Grandma's" T-bird. Generally speaking, T-birds are 600 pounds heavier than GT's, so 'splain to me how taking the stock PI motor out of a Mustang and putting it in a T-bird, without significant other drivetrain mods, is gonna take a T-bird into the 13's??

Surely there must be some dyno numbers for stock, automatic PI GT's posted on the 'Stang boards. What kind of power are they getting?? I would think that those numbers are the numbers one can expect if one takes that stock PI motor out of the Mustang, and installs it in T-Bird/Cat. I'm thinking that there isn't any mystery here ...

-mike
That was kind of my point with my post. To run a good ET in one of these cars, a lot of it seems to be in the TC, transmission, and gears. I have a lighter, more slightly powerful engine than henry74, but his car is still quicker than mine because of the TC and gears. His will be quicker still when he gets DRs on it like I had on mine. Dirtydog and I raced several times at the shootout. He'd get me off the line everytime, but I ran him down and beat him to the line by a few tenths because my car has more on the top end.

I would agree that the power between a stock automatic mustang should be roughly the same as a PI swapped bird. Maybe slightly less power in the bird due to the IRS. I really don't think the weights are 600 lbs difference though. I had a 96 GT 5spd that I weighed at 3260 lbs on a truck scale with no driver. My bird later weighed 3460 lbs with no driver. The only weight reduction done was the AL block engine, 1/4 tank of gas, and I removed the back seat and spare tire and jack.

When I first started modifying my car, I would look up what JL, Kdanner, and 1MTNCAT had in their combos so I could try to figure out what worked, what didn't, and where the money would be best spent. I think a basic recipe for at least 13s is the classic: More power, high stall converter, Jmodded transmission, at least 3.73 gears, good tires, a good tune, and an adequate driver. Weight reduction helps too.

-Rob
 
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