TCCoA Forums banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
738 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
After a few years of indecision about whether or not I even wanted to build a MN-12 chassis....I am now ready to embrace the concept. In fact, I think I wish to stockpile a few of these cars for future builds.

Why?

I have explored, in depth, what else is out there to build/buy. Let's examine this together, shall we?

1. Mustang.
I have developed a bit of a crush on the 2005-2009 Mustang. However, like the Mustang, it's only skin-deep. Why? The chassis is nothing more than rehashed Fox-body tech, developed in the 1970's....and when it's all said and done, if you want it to really drive and run well, you're having to fix Ford's screwups, and attempt to reverse-engineer around the limitations of MacPherson strut 'technology', and a rear suspension setup straight out of the old Ford Aerostar minivan. Let's see, we spend $15K and up for a used GT, spend thousands fixing what Ford went cheap on....and still have a suspension setup that comes in a distant second to a decently-upgraded MN12 setup?

Uh, no thanks. I'll pass.

1A.2010-2012 Mustangs?
Just in case you've been living in a vacuum....the 2011-up Mustang GT 5.0 (with the 6-speed manual, anyway) is wrapping up to be one of Ford's most prolific disasters in engineering, with the Chinese-built MT-82 6-speed suffering from still-unknown problems, and Ford is still refusing to acknowledge that there is even a problem to begin with. Complaints to NHTSA pile up daily, transmissions fail daily, and the only real option right now is to spend $4000-$5000 over what you're already on the hook for through Ford to get a transmission that isn't built in China, and actually stands a snowball's chance in hell of lasting more than 10K miles....did I mention that most of the tranny failures are occuring before the 10K mark?
I actually had a build sheet ready for a 2012 GT....and promptly destroyed it, once I found out how Ford was again screwing their customers....and they're still rehashing Fox-body suspension technology.

2. Ford of Australia.
Anyone here aware that Ford has a really nice IRS system for the Aussie market? It's much stronger than the MN12 platform IRS....but forget about getting one, or an entire car that has the better IRS....you really can't import anything from Australia. Holden makes an evil 6.2L, 6-speed Commodore wagon with a lot of options, almost redefining the term 'family hot rod'....think of a Pontiac G8 wagon that you can even tow with.....and then get depressed, because you can't get one here.

3. Chevy.
That leaves....the Camaro. However, Camaro combines 'interior' and 'claustrophobia' in the same sentence....and it drives like a tank, although it feels like there is a bad-ass car trying to sneak out its bloated shell.

4. Dodge. One word: Dealer Markup.

There's more to complain about, but for now, considering how much you still have to fix Ford's 'Not-So-Greatest Moments In Engineering' in even their newest offerings....and how even the competition is having their own problems....I'll stick with dirt-cheap MN12 shells.
 

·
PostWhore, The AFDB is on a lil tight.
Joined
·
3,868 Posts
Id get an 80s fox stang and build one up if you want to hot rod. MN12 is anotehr more diffucult way to hot rod but better be a real hot rodder or be on this site all the time to get parts you want. I chose to be on the site all the time to know all the weak points and parts. I think the work load is the same since the stang stuff can be bought easier but the car is typically in rougher shape. MN12s are newer but parts are hard to come by for some people. For ex today I found a 93 sc so if I wanted SC IRS parts/disk swap that would be no trouble. MN12s is all about finding donor SCs and donor mark8s.

Since the cancelling of panther I hate all new cars haha.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
16,826 Posts
I think the comparisons are good but pointless, what it really comes down to is do you like the car or not?

I mean sure the S197 uses the MCstrut which first hit the Mustang in 1979 (abet a stratospherically better design) as well as the SRA (again, 3 linked with a PHB is 1000x better than the quadrabind junk from the Fox/SN95), but then the MN12 tension rod design dates back to the 1960 falcon and there's a 16 year gap in chassis rigidity standards between the MN12 and S197, so there's negatives to everything when you look hard enough.

Moral is you can make virtually any car into anything you want and have it do pretty much anything you want it to do as long as you have the skill and desire for it. In the end it's always just a hunk of stamped steel, some aluminum, rubber, plastic, and copper no matter what you do :)

As for new cars;

-They're all nearly a foot taller than they should be to look any good (in body, NOT just ride height), not to mention I hate sitting up high from the road and sitting too low in the car. Somehow The S197 accomplishes both.

-Loaded with standard options I don't necessarily want.

-Loaded with safety features I can't help but question the real benefit of.

-Won't ever look better than anything older.

-Can't do anything I can't do with an old platform if I so desired.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
836 Posts
I love my wifes mach1 mustang but honestly love driving my car far more at the track. it's simpler and the brakes feel like brakes and it launches harder then my mustang ever does.

With that said, her car is an absolute blast to drive on nice summer days. It's pickup from a roll is great and it just looks good.

All that to say that I agree with everyone else. You can make almost any car you want into your dream car. It just depends on what your dream is, which should be the basis for the decision. When I get to where I can run an 11.99 in the 1/4 mile, I plan on selling the car after enjoying it for a year or two.
 

·
MAMN12 Posse Member
Joined
·
2,903 Posts
1A.2010-2012 Mustangs?
Just in case you've been living in a vacuum....the 2011-up Mustang GT 5.0 (with the 6-speed manual, anyway) is wrapping up to be one of Ford's most prolific disasters in engineering, with the Chinese-built MT-82 6-speed suffering from still-unknown problems, and Ford is still refusing to acknowledge that there is even a problem to begin with. Complaints to NHTSA pile up daily, transmissions fail daily, and the only real option right now is to spend $4000-$5000 over what you're already on the hook for through Ford to get a transmission that isn't built in China, and actually stands a snowball's chance in hell of lasting more than 10K miles....did I mention that most of the tranny failures are occuring before the 10K mark?
I actually had a build sheet ready for a 2012 GT....and promptly destroyed it, once I found out how Ford was again screwing their customers....and they're still rehashing Fox-body suspension technology.
One of the reasons I got rid of my '11 GT. It was an early build date which seemed to be the ones that were affected most. I've even seen several cases where after dropping the transmission, people are finding several of the pressure plate bolts backed almost all the way out.

You also forgot to mention the issue with the clutch pedal sticking to the floor in some early builds.

And possible problems with cylinder #8.

The interior feels cheap (although better than previous years), and the stock suspension is nothing more than a joke. The trunk is decent sized, but the opening is barely big enough to crawl through (and I'm a skinny guy). I won't even go into the winter factor, and forget hauling any more than 1 passenger.

I traded it in a few weekends ago for an SHO, and couldn't be happier with everything about the car.

Mustang forums are quite entertaining with all of this going on. On one side, you've got the the people that are having problems, saying what is happening. On the other side, you have the hardcore loyalists that swear it's anything but the car's fault.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,920 Posts
LOL :tongue:

Oh, I bet the Mustang forums are an interesting read Jeff.

I look forward to seeing your SHO.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
16,826 Posts
I know what you mean by the cheap feeling interiors, other than the seats everything is some kind of hard rubber or plastic, no vinyl wrapped padded dash and door panels. Plus too much chrome, mostly in the 05-09 but still. Chrome plastic is the epitome of cheezy.
 

·
Boost!!!
Joined
·
814 Posts
I know what you mean by the cheap feeling interiors, other than the seats everything is some kind of hard rubber or plastic, no vinyl wrapped padded dash and door panels. Plus too much chrome, mostly in the 05-09 but still. Chrome plastic is the epitome of cheezy.
exactly...thats why advance and autozone have so many "plastic chrome ghetto badges"...a lot of people like that kinda crap
 

·
Like Titles Matter
Joined
·
2,129 Posts
I know a lot of people with the 11-up Mustangs, we race the hell out of them all the time. Yes, I've seen people hurt the trans when powershifting, mainly into 5th. Most of the problems attributed to the trans are in fact clutch problems, which then cause a trans problem since the clutch won't fully disengage. It's still a small amount, and totally overinflated on forums. Yes I would put a better clutch in it, and most of the people in circles I run in have done so. I think that goes with the territory, we race these things, it's no different than me putting the torque converter in mine.

At any rate the automatic is flat out bad ass and faster than the manual anyway. I haven't seen a single example of anyone ever hurting it, even in multiple 9 second cars.

The cylinder #8, I call them out regularly on this. They've been able to produce pictures of exactly ONE car which has had a problem. Again, forum BS spread like wildfire to make it look like some kind of pandemic, constantly being commented on by a bunch of people that don't even know what they are looking at anyway.

As for the comment about Dodge dealers marking up, I don't see it at all, good friend bought a Challenger R/T for 7 grand under sticker in December. It's a good car for the price, they really perform almost the same as the SRT, they clearly under rate the 5.7 in order to try to steer customers to the SRT. The car is an automatic and has run 13.40s while bone stock right down to the tires. Can't complain about that from a car that went across the scales at 4280 with driver. Same guy has owned a few cars over the last year and a half:

2010 Mustang GT
2010 GT500
2010 Camaro SS
2011 Challenger R/T
2011 Mustang GT

The last 2 are the ones he still owns, he'll tell you they are the best 2 of the bunch, and that the Camaro was the worst.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,472 Posts
What no complaints about them all being shaped like a brick.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
16,826 Posts
What no complaints about them all being shaped like a brick.
Indirectly, I did have the S197 in mind as I wrote this

As for new cars;

-They're all nearly a foot taller than they should be to look any good (in body, NOT just ride height), not to mention I hate sitting up high from the road and sitting too low in the car. Somehow The S197 accomplishes both.
I'm more turned off by it's big fat fluffy ass than the overall profile though
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,472 Posts
I don't like how so many of the new cars have 400+hp but horrible drag coefficients. I love how it takes a 6.3 Hemi to get a Charger to the same top speed as a 3.8 Mn-12.
 

·
PostWhore, The AFDB is on a lil tight.
Joined
·
3,868 Posts
I think the coyote and auto are kinda cool pieces but new cars over all have too many safety features that ruin the car and too much crap. THe 90s was a tipping point for all that. I want people to drive a fast car full well knowing they could die if driven stupid, it would thin out the herd and make people driven with more sense.

People bag on the fox mustang as being a dino but you can get parts for them easy and build it up like a hot rod, fixing the flimsy body and bad stock suspension. You dont need tons of power. Maybe Im old fashioned LOL. Id like to see a SWB 2 door 00's vic with a coyote. Just need some donor doors. That would dump weight. I wonder what that would look like even LOL.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
680 Posts
I know a lot of people with the 11-up Mustangs, we race the hell out of them all the time. Yes, I've seen people hurt the trans when powershifting, mainly into 5th. Most of the problems attributed to the trans are in fact clutch problems, which then cause a trans problem since the clutch won't fully disengage. It's still a small amount, and totally overinflated on forums. Yes I would put a better clutch in it, and most of the people in circles I run in have done so. I think that goes with the territory, we race these things, it's no different than me putting the torque converter in mine.

At any rate the automatic is flat out bad ass and faster than the manual anyway. I haven't seen a single example of anyone ever hurting it, even in multiple 9 second cars.

The cylinder #8, I call them out regularly on this. They've been able to produce pictures of exactly ONE car which has had a problem. Again, forum BS spread like wildfire to make it look like some kind of pandemic, constantly being commented on by a bunch of people that don't even know what they are looking at anyway.

As for the comment about Dodge dealers marking up, I don't see it at all, good friend bought a Challenger R/T for 7 grand under sticker in December. It's a good car for the price, they really perform almost the same as the SRT, they clearly under rate the 5.7 in order to try to steer customers to the SRT. The car is an automatic and has run 13.40s while bone stock right down to the tires. Can't complain about that from a car that went across the scales at 4280 with driver. Same guy has owned a few cars over the last year and a half:

2010 Mustang GT
2010 GT500
2010 Camaro SS
2011 Challenger R/T
2011 Mustang GT

The last 2 are the ones he still owns, he'll tell you they are the best 2 of the bunch, and that the Camaro was the worst.
Agreed: I have to say, I have been doing a lot of reading on camaroes (sp?), mustangs, and mazdaspeed6's (I currently own), and forums tend to inflate issues more than solve them, generally. The camaroes have been breaking more than mustangs from what I have been reading, and you have to do quite a bit for the chevy to handle more power. Again, this is what I have been reading, and have no experience with the mustang or camaro.

Also, you have to consider what people do and don't tell. For example, engines on MS6's tend to blow up quite a bit. People blame Mazda and all this stuff; however, if you look at the majority of situations, most people change exhausts, tunes, and boost controllers (it is a 2.3 disi turbo). There was one person calling the 2.3 turbo engine garbage when he was running 20psi boost on the stock turbo with catless exhaust, no tune, and an injector swap, yet the forum agrees that it is a bad engine design. . .

Sorry to get off topic -

Stephen
 

·
Like Titles Matter
Joined
·
2,129 Posts
Sorry to get off topic -
You're dead on topic. Forums are riddled with a bunch of conspiracy theorists that can't even do basic mechanical work on their own, yet think they know better than the engineers do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
591 Posts
LOL :tongue:

Oh, I bet the Mustang forums are an interesting read Jeff.

I look forward to seeing your SHO.
LOL im on a few JUST for the classified section, but if you own a tbird and dont have thick skin i wouldnt post anything suggesting that you may own one, seems to be alot of tbird hate comming from those guys. :confused:
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,901 Posts
LOL im on a few JUST for the classified section, but if you own a tbird and dont have thick skin i wouldnt post anything suggesting that you may own one, seems to be alot of tbird hate comming from those guys. :confused:
They're just jealous about the leg room and comfortable ride :diablo:

RwP
 

·
PostWhore, The AFDB is on a lil tight.
Joined
·
3,868 Posts
You're dead on topic. Forums are riddled with a bunch of conspiracy theorists that can't even do basic mechanical work on their own, yet think they know better than the engineers do.
Bottom line people are NOT realistic when they think they can change parts of their mass produced product and expect it to last as long. The best part about being a late comer to an mn12 is listening to the long and informative list of trial and error from tccoa. Thanks to all the forerunners and forebreakers.

For every one good set of hands that can wrench with the best of them there are 10 b itches that complain and refuse to learn.
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top