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MN12 Fanatic
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Well I went to the track yesterday for the High school Nationals at Norwalk. The best time I ran out of 4 runs was 15.601! I ran 15.7's the first times and 15.6's the next two times. Man was I disappointed!!!

I am going to post a thread in the racing forum with more info on that.

Thats horrible for all the work I have done to my car!

If any of you remeber me doing the PI Intake and cam swap and saying that my car felt slower afterwards, well I think I was right. So I am pretty sure that one or even both of the cams timing is off a tooth. I did a vacuum test today and I get 22 at idle. I beleive slight retardtion would cause the higher vacuum... correct?

So I am going to have to tear it down again, man this sucks! It is the only thing it can be!

:mad:

Anyways here is what mods I have done:

- Apten chip with 1 step colder plugs, 180* T-Sat, and FRRP 9mm wires
- J-Mod (mild setting) with tranny cooler
- K&N 9in cone with a heatsheild
- Steeda U/D pulleys
- Cutoff exhuast after primary cats, with purple hornies and dumps added on
- PI intake with 03 Mustang plenum and TB
- PI Cams
- 245/60/15 BFGoodwrich tires
- EDIT - 2000 GT Intake Tube

I didn't have any traction issues or anything. Weather was sunny, partly cloudy and the temp was at about 68-75 through out the day.

:confused:
 

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Is the chip proggramed for the PI intake/cams?? if not there is your problem. With my new 03 PI exploder engine, I am running low 16's, but I dont have a tune, no jmod, no gears and only custom exhaust. So I think you are not that bad. You still need a tune for the PI stuff you put in.
 

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MN12 Fanatic
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Discussion Starter #3
The computer learns the extra incoming air on its own and adjusts to it. I don't believe I need to get a tune just for the cams and intake. I know it would make it better, but I just know something is wrong, I can feel it.

I know a bunch of people that did the PI cam and intake swap that didn't have a tune and had great results on here! My thing is with the mods I had prior the swap I was probably in the low 15's, maybe even high 14's. Then I did the swap and felt a loss in power (which resulted in the 15.7's and 15.6's). I know that shouldn't happen, I hear people saying they felt a huge difference after the sawp without a tune.

For example: If you take a look at fdawg97lx times, he ran a 15 flat with the same mods that I had before the swap. When he got his PI intake on, he said he felt it pull much harder up high. He ran into a little trouble with the cams though. My car just feels like it pulls less as compared to before the swap.

You probably need a tune becuse you have an entire different engine.... with different compression, heads, cams, intake, etc... Didn't you feel disappointed when you ran that 16? I know I would of. Hopefully with the tune, you will see a huge difference!

It even states on the Apten site, that you don't need a reburn for the swap:
http://www.apten-us.com/chips/faq.asp#1
 

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Tony said:
The computer learns the extra incoming air on its own and adjusts to it. I don't believe I need to get a tune just for the cams and intake.
I believe that it only adjusts when running closed loop. At WOT, it still uses the lookup tables. And with the increased airflow with the PI cams and intake, the lookup tables can't be right.

I also think 22 in vac is ok for an OEM grind cam, but I'd have to double check that.

There's definitely more to be had with your combination. I really think a tune will see some improvements.

Also, I’ll second the question: what TC are you using and add: what were your 60' times?

Just my .02. :thumbsup:
 

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Even with a stock TC, I would think you should be running at least a 15.1 car. I would have your car tuned first off.

While your at it, what are your 60' times? If you are running 2.4 or 2.5 or something similar, it may have something to do with your gears and TC.
 

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Formerly Fdawg97LX
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3,186 Posts
tony, do a compression check before you tear it down. that is the easiest way to tell if the cam timing is off. you should definitly be down around 14.6-14.8, with your mods. I ran 15.1's at the track last friday but i had my octane pin pulled and was running 87 octane (gas prices are killing me). So i'm guessing with the octane pin in and 93 octane i should be around 14.9. our mods lists are just about identical except you have the cams too. i also think its your cam timing but your better off doing a compression check first in case its not, you dont want to tear it down again for nothing.

Frank
 

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02 Explorer Pioneer
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The other question that needs to be asked is what were the conditions at the track at the time. Even with my SC'd 4.6 my times have varried as much as .5 depending on the air temp and barometric pressure. Just something to consider to make sure you guys are comparing apples to apples
 

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Boom.
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timb said:
The other question that needs to be asked is what were the conditions at the track at the time. Even with my SC'd 4.6 my times have varried as much as .5 depending on the air temp and barometric pressure. Just something to consider to make sure you guys are comparing apples to apples
Hopefully that is the case with my car and my last time at the track was at the high end of that .5 variance :rofl: :D
 

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If I had still had the 3.08's and tbird converter like the last time I ran I know it would have been more than .5
 

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Dude i'm in the same boat you are in. I ran a 14.9 with a sct tune from Reinhart, 80mm LMAF, 75mm bbk TB, underdrives and 3.27 gears with a non jmoded tranny. Now with all that stuff and 3.73's jmod, and marauder TC i got a best of a 15.1 For me i'm hoping it was just track conditions and heat. I know at least some of mine was traction problems. either way i'm disappointetd same as you
 

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02 Explorer Pioneer
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Well I'll add one thing since I know everyone gets hung up on their track numbers. How many people were absolutely satisfied with their mods until they ran at the track and then were disapointed because their time didn't match up with their SOTP meter? I think more than would like to admit. It's just a number and there are so many variables that can affect it including your own driving and launching skill but too many people get discouraged because of one night at the track. If you really want a lower number you will find it with some practice and carefully picking your track days for good air and barometric readings. Bottom line is most of your cars live on the street and if you are happy with it there that is what matters. :D
 

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MN12 Fanatic
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Discussion Starter #14
Thanks for the responses guys!

Before I even did the PI swap me and my buddy raced all the time. He has a almost stock 94 cougar 4.6L. The outcome was always the same, I would pull a lot and he would never have a chance. Now after the swap he keeps up with me a lot and that is what really scares me. I got video footage to prove it! In fact he ran a best of 16.0 last night at the track. All he has is a RM Tube and hacked exhaust. He was having traction issues though. So I know that the track and waether was good. He had his spare ands subs in too. He was happy with his times! I put so much more time and money into my car and he can almost keep up with me.

The thing is with me, my SOTP meter told me my car felt slower after the swap, so I was kind of expecting crappy times. I'd bet that before the swap I could of got a low 15 for sure. The car just felt better, stonger and faster before.

BTW I am running the stock TC and stock 3.27 gears with TL for now.

How exactly would a compression check tell me if the timing is off? Thanks for the help guys! I really appreciate it!

O and for some reason the 60' times were not included in the time slip.

:2huh:
 

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i was suprised at my times, i was expecting 15.4-15.6, but then i ran a 15 flat, so my SOTP meter makes the car slower then it is

sounds to me like something is broken, i think it would act up alot more if the timing chain was off a tooth or more, but then again who knows, im curious as to why the car is runing slower, and with your mods, id expect 15 flats or 14.9s all day long, something isnt right, its not the chip though, it wouldnt be thrown off that much by pi cams and a pi intake

not to call you stupid, but what about the condtion of your cone filter?, and witht he cone, temperature would effect your car a good bit as its sucking hot engine air, get a sheild for that puppy, i know thats no the reason your times are lacking but i know a shield would get you quicker
 

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Formerly Fdawg97LX
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Tony said:


How exactly would a compression check tell me if the timing is off? Thanks for the help guys! I really appreciate it!


:2huh:
i'm not exaclty sure but i think the compression would be wrong on the cam that is one tooth off. do a search for it because i know another memeber here found out his timing was off by doing a compression check, i just cant remember who.

Frank
 

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MN12 Fanatic
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Discussion Starter #17
JoeyICU said:
not to call you stupid, but what about the condtion of your cone filter?, and witht he cone, temperature would effect your car a good bit as its sucking hot engine air, get a sheild for that puppy, i know thats no the reason your times are lacking but i know a shield would get you quicker
I made a custom heatsheild out of plexiglass when I first put the cone in.... so that is taken care off!

If I were to tear it down again, I was planning on putting new chains and tensioners, so that it wouldn't be a complete waste of time. The right chain was definatly not tight as the left one was...
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
I did a compression check on the front two cylinders today. The driver side was 175 and the passenger side was 174.....

:confused:

So maybe the cams are timed correct?
 
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