TCCoA Forums banner

1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,634 Posts
THE IRS spells Theirs for a reason.....bunch of crooks, letting a bunch of crooks do their thing.
Did you even watch the report before you had this knee jerk reaction?

The crooks are the illegals exploiting a loophole that allows them to claim tax credits against their ITIN.

The IRS are crooks -- they are just incompetent idiots for allowing illegals to claim tax credits at all -- especially for unverifiable dependants in foreign countries.

I see no problem in forcing all illegals to pay taxes; they are using public services (like our roads and schools anyway) so they should pay in. I do see a problem in extending them tax credits though.

NOTE: There are differences in the tax code already between how they treat legal resident aliens (aka greencard holders) and citizens so there's way that they can claim such an exclusion would not be fair.

BTW, IIRC, unlike SSNs, ITINs all start with 900-999 so it would be QUITE easy to mine through the database and exclude tax credits from these individuals. Again, this is an example of the IRS being incompetent fools vs. being crooks.

THEY aren't pocketing the money -- the illegals exploiting the system are and we are paying for it. Of course, the IRS is claiming that they cannot act without efforts from Congress. So, instead of wasting time pissing and moaning about the GSA squandering $800K in Vegas, they should work quickly to stop-up this loophole.

What can you do?

* Write your congressman and ask them what they are doing to prevent this $4B fraud. Recommend that they simply exclude aliens (anyone with an ITIN) from claiming an Additional Child Tax Credit.
http://whoismyrepresentative.com/

* Cite this report:
http://www.treasury.gov/tigta/auditreports/2011reports/201141061fr.pdf

* Let's see what happens.


-g
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,634 Posts
Update:
It appears that Congress is already working to pass this bill as part of the larger bill to save taxpayers money.

However, this article says that the fix JUST passed the House Ways & Means committee and will be lumped in as part of a bill to save taxpayers money.

However, it sounds like this bill will have a harder time in the Senate... so please consider bugging your senator.

See item to cite.
http://waysandmeans.house.gov/UploadedFiles/041812_5.pdf


I'll even make it easier for you. Here's a letter I just drafted

Subject: Please help close the ACTC tax loophole and save us $4B/yr

Senator Boxer:
I have recently learned that over $4B is paid to non-citizens through their exploitation of the Additional Child Tax Credit using their ITIN numbers.

This was cited in a report by the TREASURY INSPECTOR GENERAL FOR TAX ADMINISTRATION back in 2011 but no action has been taken yet.
http://www.treasury.gov/tigta/auditreports/2011reports/201141061fr.pdf

As I understand it, a bill to fix this problem this has recently passed the House Ways and Means Committee on April 18th, 2012
http://waysandmeans.house.gov/UploadedFiles/041812_5.pdf

I encourage you to push your support for the equivalent Senate bill. This is not an immigration issue; it's an issue about fixing a loophole that certain people are using to defraud the public.
In these tough times, we need to do everything we can to save your constituents from further waste.

This seems like a fairly straightforward fix that the IRS could implement since all ITIN numbers start with 9xx but apparently they need a mandate from Congress to implement such a fix.

Thank you for your consideration,
s4gunn
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,062 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
What is more interesting is the fact that I have had conversation about illegals not paying taxes and I have heard over and over that they use other's numbers to pay in. That no employer would hire without taking out the taxes, blah blah.

I now have a video to show them that might concern them a bit. But I am sure this only happens in Indiana. :rolleyes:

R
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,634 Posts
What is more interesting is the fact that I have had conversation about illegals not paying taxes and I have heard over and over that they use other's numbers to pay in. That no employer would hire without taking out the taxes, blah blah.

I now have a video to show them that might concern them a bit. But I am sure this only happens in Indiana. :rolleyes:

R
ITINs look different from SSNs as they all start with 9xx-xx-xxxx
If you show up at McDonalds and you given them an ITIN, the employer needs to receive additional documentation that proves that you are allowed to work in the US legally.

I know this because i have some cousins who came to the US for grad school and they were allowed a minimal amount of work on campus (usually grading or TA jobs). In order to work these jobs, they had to apply for an ITIN so they could work and they had to show the school that their VISA allows for such work. There's no reason my cousins should have been allowed ACTC tax credits, either (even if they did have kids).

If an illegal wants to work at McDonalds, they will need to supply fraudulent documents to prove that they can work in the US. Whether or not that is easier/harder than supplying a dead man's SSN is a different question. While that's bad in and of itself, taking it a step further and exploiting the tax system for additional gain is IMO even worse. $4B worse.

This is not an immigration issue; it's a simple fraud issue. If you try to get support from Congress fix this bill as an immigration issue, it will be caught in the quagmire between people on both sides of that debate. However, if you frame this as a fraud issue, it will be hard for anyone to stand against closing this loophole (like being "pro" rape or "pro" pissing money away).

PS. This non descriptive thread title sucks.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,908 Posts
Thread title fixed.

I'm also going to move this discussion to the Misc. forum.

Political discussions are not allowed but I'll let this thread slide as long as it remains civil.

Thanks for drafting and sharing an apporopriate letter S4gunn. I'll be sure to send a copy along to my represenatives.
 

·
PostSlut
Joined
·
13,597 Posts
Did you even watch the report before you had this knee jerk reaction?

The crooks are the illegals exploiting a loophole that allows them to claim tax credits against their ITIN.

The IRS are crooks -- they are just incompetent idiots for allowing illegals to claim tax credits at all -- especially for unverifiable dependants in foreign countries.

I see no problem in forcing all illegals to pay taxes; they are using public services (like our roads and schools anyway) so they should pay in. I do see a problem in extending them tax credits though.

NOTE: There are differences in the tax code already between how they treat legal resident aliens (aka greencard holders) and citizens so there's way that they can claim such an exclusion would not be fair.

BTW, IIRC, unlike SSNs, ITINs all start with 900-999 so it would be QUITE easy to mine through the database and exclude tax credits from these individuals. Again, this is an example of the IRS being incompetent fools vs. being crooks.

THEY aren't pocketing the money -- the illegals exploiting the system are and we are paying for it. Of course, the IRS is claiming that they cannot act without efforts from Congress. So, instead of wasting time pissing and moaning about the GSA squandering $800K in Vegas, they should work quickly to stop-up this loophole.

What can you do?

* Write your congressman and ask them what they are doing to prevent this $4B fraud. Recommend that they simply exclude aliens (anyone with an ITIN) from claiming an Additional Child Tax Credit.
http://whoismyrepresentative.com/

* Cite this report:
http://www.treasury.gov/tigta/auditreports/2011reports/201141061fr.pdf

* Let's see what happens.


-g
yes i did.....and i'm not changing what i said.....did you watch the report?
the irs knows what is going on, and not doing anything about it.......again, crooks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,634 Posts
yes i did.....and i'm not changing what i said.....did you watch the report?
the irs knows what is going on, and not doing anything about it.......again, crooks.
Perhaps this is semantics here

Crook (n): a dishonest person, especially a sharper, swindler, or thief.

* In this case, the IRS didn't steal anything -- the illegals did with their fraudulant filings.

* By being aware of the crime and continuing to process these claims, they are aiding in this theft but they aren't exactly GAINING anything by letting it happen (besides a reputation for being idiots). How does that make them "crooks"?

* OTOH, if the IRS refused to give me my tax refund, I'd be the first to call them crooks. In this example, they are swindling me out of the refund I deserve.

* That's not the situation here. According to the newcast, they are following the rules as handed to them by congress (this is very much like a computer being given garbage inputs and then generating the wrong output -- you need to blame the bad input NOT the computer). In this case, I maintain that you should blame the criminals and not the IRS.

Bottom Line: if you want to fix the problem, you need to get congress to eliminate the loophole and THEN you can hold the IRS at fault if they continue to give out these ACTCs. Of course, most american's would rather complain than actually try and do something about it.

Send a few emails. Send the recommended action to your friends and implore them to pass it on. Otherwise, this is just one more bit of online entertainment.


-g
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
404 Posts
If you think that the senate is going to do anything with this during an election year forget it! Even though I agree it's not an immigration issue, they'll turn it into one because they don't anger the Hispanic vote. As far as the IRS goes, they sure can catch me when I screw up and make me pay.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,908 Posts
If you think that the senate is going to do anything with this during an election year forget it! Even though I agree it's not an immigration issue, they'll turn it into one because they don't anger the Hispanic vote. As far as the IRS goes, they sure can catch me when I screw up and make me pay.
I don't see why. Illegals can't vote anyway.

This really pisses me off. :mad:

When I'm working my ass of and filing my taxes honestly and they're pulling this sh!t and getting away with it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,634 Posts
I don't see why. Illegals can't vote anyway.

This really pisses me off. :mad:

When I'm working my ass of and filing my taxes honestly and they're pulling this sh!t and getting away with it.
Well, according to this report, you could just claim 9 illegal alien dependents as well and cash $$$ in.

The only catch is that with a citizen, the presumption is that your dependents are also likely to be citizens and it will raise a red flag if you don't supply this additional documentation. I'm willing to bet such a maneuver (even if you claim they reside in a foreign country) will trigger an audit and when you cannot prove the existence of your 7 dependant nephews Dopey, Sneezy, Happy, Sleepy, Grumpy, Bashful, and Doc (not an MD), you will get p0wned.

With illegal aliens, there's no ID number for the kids so it's especially hard to prove -- doubly so if they are in a different country. Even if they do exist, I'm willing to bet that the same kid will be claimed by multiple tax filers in the US.

The solution is quite elegant: don't give them tax credits so no investigations will be needed.

As far as turning this into a "racist" issue, I'm not sure how even the biggest bleeding heart could pull it off.
1) We already treat aliens different from citizens in our tax code.
2) We already prosecute CITIZENS for dependent fraud so how can you give aliens a pass?
Even if you did advocate for rights for illegal aliens, it's very hard to say that you support tax cheats or even that the illegals deserve additional support from the US government for kids not even residing in the US.

While i haven't received a reply from Pelosi or Feinstein yet, I'm not sure how either Senator could support such actions.

-g
 

·
50 years of Mercury Cougar 1967/2017
Joined
·
1,255 Posts
So how much dinero do you have to make to have a 10k tax refund?
You are not going to get that much picking oranges and tomatoes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,062 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
So how much dinero do you have to make to have a 10k tax refund?
You are not going to get that much picking oranges and tomatoes.
You know that is a good question.

A long time ago I knew 2 fellas who claimed a bunch of kids.
- One actually had 13 loaded them up and went to show them. They were called down on it.

- The other I am not sure if he was ever called down but all we know is he left town rather quickly.

Person one didn't make much money and did in fact get a lot of money back. Was it more than he paid in, I am not sure. I've always been taught that you cannot go below zero and if he paid in 5000.00 how can he get back more than he paid in. But I think the clue here is tax credit back, not deductions for the children.

Person two made much more money and took the refund and ran. Now reason would say that this one should have just done it the honest way and continue to make money for the rest of his working life. We do not know the reason he did what he did.

I guess I will have to ask a tax professional that knows all the code.

Rodney
 

·
50 years of Mercury Cougar 1967/2017
Joined
·
1,255 Posts
I have a good accountant.
If people are claiming more than they are earning there criminals.
Last year I made alot. Pension pay out, sick time, blood time vacation time, etc.
My refund was 12k, due to familie members huge medical expenses.
These are just defrauding the govt.
I have transported illegals to the ER.
They work hard during the week then get liquored up on the weekend and get into fights.
I would guess the people defrauding the govt. are living south of the border.
Every illegal I met on rescue calls just want to work. They did not even want to go to the ER, but their cut open face proved otherwise.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,634 Posts
You know that is a good question.

A long time ago I knew 2 fellas who claimed a bunch of kids.
- One actually had 13 loaded them up and went to show them. They were called down on it.

- The other I am not sure if he was ever called down but all we know is he left town rather quickly.

Person one didn't make much money and did in fact get a lot of money back. Was it more than he paid in, I am not sure. I've always been taught that you cannot go below zero and if he paid in 5000.00 how can he get back more than he paid in. But I think the clue here is tax credit back, not deductions for the children.

Person two made much more money and took the refund and ran. Now reason would say that this one should have just done it the honest way and continue to make money for the rest of his working life. We do not know the reason he did what he did.

I guess I will have to ask a tax professional that knows all the code.

Rodney

Rodney:
You can't get back in a refund more than you earned in UNLESS you never actually earned that amount to begin with. In one example from that tv reporter's report, the illegal committed two forms of fraud
1) overstated income (to be eligible for more deductions)
2) claimed kids (either ones that didn't live with him or didn't exist to begin with).

If you work for a company as a regular employee, they withhold money every paycheck and send that to the govt. If you made $100K in 2011, you'd owe them $16.7K in taxes. This also means you are eligible for $16.7K in tax credits.

Now, claiming 10 dependants would lower your tax burden down to $7468. If the govt assumes (because you forged the documents) that you already paid $16.7K in, you could net $9.2K in ill-gotten "refunds".

This is simple tax fraud above and beyond the question of "whether or not an illegal alien should be given tax credits to begin with."
-g
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,634 Posts
Why don't you tell us how you realllly feel about "mexican" illegal immigrants??

Rayo..
While I believe you are trolling, I'll take the bait:

* I have no problem with Mexicans or any other immigrants. My parents were immigrants but they did it the legal way (came as students, received business visas, established residency, and then became citizens). While personally I think all prospective immigrants should do it the legal way, I recognize that there are vast numbers of people (including lots of "mexicans") that just came over.

* This vast pool of cheap labor contributes to the US having a high standard of living. It's nice that food and dry cleaning is this cheap. It's also sad that there are quite a few citizens with the capability but not the stamina/willpower to do these jobs at the pay levels that illegals are willing to accept. I'm also not sure how many citizens would be willing to do these jobs (fruit picking, etc) for 20% over what the current markey pays. While I would be willing to pay more for items, if the price for everything went up by 20% there'd be riots in the streets. Therefore, we need to find a different solution to this problem than just "kick everyone out and put Americans to work."

* While I applaud Obama's "tightening of the border", I also recognize that border control a vast money pit and we've already exceeded the point of diminishing returns (almost as bad as the drug war). "Kicking out every illegal" is not a goal that is realistic, affordable, or even in our best interest (see item above).

* One of the few programs I agreed with Bush about was his proposed guest worker programs. Germany and quite a few other countries have been doing this for years. People come over, work, send money back for their families, and then leave. No citizenship is conferred. Of course, Jus Soli (Citizenship by Birth), as given in the Constitution, may need to be revisited and I don't think this will be realistically addressed.

* One are where I do object to illegal immigration is in the area of criminality. There are millions of law abiding (in every other respect except for immigration) illegal aliens. They keep their nose clean, make money for their families, and get on with their lives. However, there are criminals in every population and if you are already here illegally, i see no reason to keep you around (we have enough criminals who are citizens we need to "reform." In fact, there are several cases where "sanctuary city" policies, like those that were previously in place in SF, actually came back and were detrimental to society.
Examples:
- a young man decided that 3 guys (a father and two sons) looked like rival gang members and gunned them down one afternoon on a busy street. Turns out, the family weren't gang members (only latinos), and this young man had recently been sent to a halfway house in SoCal instead of being reported to ICE and deported.
- SF also had this idea where young first offenders were sent to a job skills program instead of jail. If they passed, they would be given assistance in getting a job and their criminal charges would be dismissed. Again, our sanctuary city BS enabled several people to enter this program who upon completion would have no ability to legally work. They took spots in this diversion program from citizens who could have actually benefited from this program.
- The list goes on..

* I have no objections to giving them HS education or basic medical services given to all poor people (the kids need something to do and you need to make sure that enough of the public is vaccinated to keep the entire public safe).

* I am torn by illegal immigrants getting in-state college tuition. A citizen from another state doesn't get this break. I have no problems admitting them on merit (educating the best and the brightest makes our workforce better) but I see no reason why they should pay anything less than out of state/international student rates. There is no reason for the state to subsidize their education. OTOH, I am willing to consider citizenship for these graduates should they graduate with a degree that the US is short of AND they have crime-free backgrounds. Australia already prioritizes immigrants based on skills -- there's no reason why the US shouldn't do the same thing.

* Neither political party has put forth any plan to solve or minimize the problem.
One side wants to open up the border while the other wants to piss away $$$$ trying to fully close our borders. Neither system will work.

Fundamentally though, the reason I glommed onto this thread was because i see this not as an immigration problem but a fraud issue. One that is easily solved if congress (and the IRS) get off their buttocks.

There you go. While not terribly succinct, does this answer make sense to you or is it just more
?

-g
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,961 Posts
While I would be willing to pay more for items, if the price for everything went up by 20% there'd be riots in the streets.

-g
sometimes I think it should. America needs to 'learn a lesson' because we got ourselves here. A lot of it comes from parenting. Absent parents = kids who don't give a crap about getting an eduation to get good paying jobs because there is always aid somehow.
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
Top