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Discussion Starter #1
In addition to TCCoA, I am also a member of a general automotive forum welcome to owners of all kinds of vehicles. Over there people know me as a Ford guy and even more so a Thunderbird guy. In this thread I get into a very long but very interesting argument about the MN12 and its place as a modern performance platform. I like standing up for our cars to people who aren't normally MN12 fans, and like spreading the word about our cars.

What do you guys think about the arguments raised and what I had to say. Any suggestions? Am I talking out of my ass, or do I have a point? I'd like to know what MN12 folks have to say. :)

My username is the same over there, Thunderbird discussion starts at post #4.

http://www.carforum.net/automotive-news/10753-[j]-camaro-zl1-gets-sae-power-torque.html
 

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Haters will be haters. :zdunno:

If they all have closed minds, they're not worth the effort. Which is the way it seems. They've never owned one, they never will, and they're content to keep it that way. Who cares what they think, we already know better.
 

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While I think your points may be valid, I think your attitude is way off and confrontational!!!

I think there are haters on both sides of the aisle. :thumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Haters will be haters. :zdunno:

If they all have closed minds, they're not worth the effort. Which is the way it seems. They've never owned one, they never will, and they're content to keep it that way. Who cares what they think, we already know better.
Yeah, its like banging my head on a brick wall... :rolleyes:

While I think your points may be valid, I think your attitude is way off and confrontational!!!

I think there are haters on both sides of the aisle. :thumbsup:
I think you're right, I got frustrated and came off as kind of a jerk...

Probably doesnt help my point. :tongue:
 

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Probably doesnt help my point. :tongue:
That was exactly what I was thinking. :D :rofl:

You did provide good information though! :bowdown:
 

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I don't think two totally different cars can be compared. The MN-12s are nice but are getting a little long in the tooth. New suspensions on cars are so much better now and lighter. I'm not saying MN-12s are has beens but you should compare apples to apples.

I have a 3.8 LX and am quite satisfied with the handling with my new suspension bits and 60 series tires vice the 70s but it's no race car but it handles much better than my Foxes I had.

Camaros just can't be compared to Tbirds of any kind. Tbirds aren't sports cars, they are personal luxury coupes that can be had in several configurations, none of which are "pony" cars.

You can compare Camaros to Challengers and Mustangs but keep in mind that both the Challenger and Camaro are 400lbs heavier than a Mustang. In every dimension they are bigger than Mustangs.

It's all personal preference.
 

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I don't agree with your views on Ford's current products. My Fiesta is better put together then ANY 90's car, period. If Ford still made cars like they did in the 90's to mid 00's, they would be out of business. Under the current management, they are building cars that people want. The only two things they are doing wrong is killing off the Ranger and not bringing the Falcon here.

I love my MN12, faults and all. I love putting on items Ford should have done in the first place (Aluminum driveshaft, dual piston brakes, SC seats, bigger swaybars, ect). It really is most of the fun of owning one of these cars.
 

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Its extremely similar to the Cobra IRS, and the Lincoln LS / 02 Thunderbird IRS.
Other than being SLA and sharing the same pumpkin design(cobra), the IRS is really not that similar between them. The way the spindles are located via the control arms are different, the way the subframe is designed is different and the way it all mounts together is different. The DEW98 IRS is completely different altogether, there was more roots with Jaguar than ford in the suspension. Though there were some structural traits in the rest of the chassis that were learned in the development of the MN12 that were applied to the DEW98.

I do think you're giving these cars too much credit and coming off as a bit of a fanboi IMO It's not making us or these cars look good ;)

sloppy ass Camaro chassis
You'd cry if you saw the results of a torsional rigidity test between an MN12 and a new Camaro. It's not in our favor lol

Ford needs to get back to the 1980s glory days of excellent engineering on the cars that mattered, a world beating attitude, and quality being job one.
Tempo topaz escort lynx. 80s Ford cars that had the attitude to make a worse suspension than the world car equivalents, put in horribly unreliable engines or that pos derived from Fords very long in tooth straight 6, and virtually no notable refinement to be seen in their entire lifespan. There's a reason small imports skyrocketed in popularity in the 70s/80s, domestics across the board sucked at compacts! It wouldn't be until the late 90s that they would get their heads out of their collective asses and use models that the European subsidiaries had been consistently developing and refining for decades.

Ford did make a lot of right moves in the 80s but almost every single one with one was the utilization of the Fox platform across a broad section of their product range. The other was the Taurus, which frankly met the same miserable fate the Tempo did by the 90s.
 

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What do you guys think about the arguments raised and what I had to say. Any suggestions? Am I talking out of my ass, or do I have a point? I'd like to know what MN12 folks have to say. :)
... I dont see how you can compare the ARC shocks to the electromagnetic ones. Youre talking about a 25 year old design, which has 2 modes Soft and Firm and the computer system is pretty dumb .. versus a german engineered brand new technology that can adjust itself up to 1000 times a minute ??? Oh, and independantly at that, our shocks are all on the same setting.

I have this 1992 Mercedes 500SL in my garage for a customer right now, it has a VERY sophisticated shock actuator system, and an IRS. Did you want me to compare this car to a MN12 ?? Other than the fact that it only has 2 doors and 2 seats, the car by all standards is FAR superior than pretty much every other car on the road in 1992. But this was 20 years ago, we have come along way since then.

The thing is that as time passes, new cars come out, and technology gets better and better, including Manufacturing standards .. and now they are designed with CAD engineering with better safety standards than we've ever had.

You cant convince everybody to love the Mn12 ... we do, and thats all that matters here.
 

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they would get their heads out of their collective asses and use models that the European subsidiaries had been consistently developing and refining for decades.
That didn't go very well at first. You could argue that the Ford Contour is the most miserable Ford of the whole decade. I would glady take a 1994 Tempo over a 1995 Contour any day. No offense to the Contour fans out there! :D
 

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Forgot about the Contour! Which in my defense is easy to do :D

Either way Ford today blows Ford of the 80s away in that market segment in terms of quality, reliability, performance, efficiency, ect. ect. The aero styling at the time was very fresh and innovative though, Ford virtually dominated that aero look for a good 5 years after it was introduced in 83 before GM would copy it. I don't think Ford could ever come out with a styling breakthrough like that again today, and that's really the only thing missing now.

I love these cars, I love seeing how ahead of the time they really were in many areas, I like that I don't see any(or many at least) but mine now, and I like educating people who are interested. But for Ford, these were a burdon. The chassis development cost should have been better spent to bolster what was already in the lineup to keep them competitive.
 

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If ford made one today the mn12 would be heavier and sport 6s and 8s of a newer type. The look of the interior might be better but I can assure you it wouldnt be much better in terms of durability and looks. More plastic and slab siding is all we have to look forward to. Built not bought still rings loud and true today as it did years ago. If you buy somewhere all the line its going to be filled will fail hidden in the trunk maybe,waiting for the unsuspecting owner to pay for it twice. Have you noticed how QUICK new cars get good marks. I mean the cars in Illinois havent even had a chance to rust out yet WTF. Alls it take is one rusty weak point to bring down the tower of carDs. I can hear it now in 10 years on a camaro board, "oh yeah thats structural not worth fixing". If you wanted a super car/hot rod build one, the mn12 isn't it. Its just cool not being pulled over and having my car broken into or stolen.
 

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Lol...everyone hates on the Contours. I loved my 98 SVT...I'd love to have another someday for a project. I've driven a Fox Mustang, and the Contour was miles ahead of that heap in quality...or maybe mine was just very well maintained.
 

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Fusion Sport > Contour SVT
 

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Fusion Sport > Contour SVT
I can't say I agree or disagree with you there since I've never driven a Fusion Sport...but they didn't make those in the 90's.;)

I will say before I picked up the SHO, a Fusion Sport was on my short list, in blue, with black/blue interior. They look great and I'm sure they handle great...there was just something missing for me.

I also think that where Ford is at now in the game is exactly where they need to be. Pretty much all of their current vehicles have some sort of appeal to me, and a lot of people I talk to. Hell, even the Fiesta is cool nowadays, who would've thought that was possible back in the 90's...outside of the Shogun...or were those Festiva's?
 

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I still love the chevys I've owned; I just hated all the others I've had to deal with over the years. :) (And their owners...)

I had a 83 Firebird that was the best handling car I'd owned, until I installed the Konis and JL's bracing. :)

My neighbor has two show trucks, a Silverado with a boat block that makes the ground shake, and an S10 with a 'vette engine that's a beast. Those chevys are very tolerable; I think the owner makes the most difference. :D
 

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some ones gonna blow after i say this :tongue: but i feel more confident cornering in my thunderbird at higher speeds than i do in my moms 07 gt mustang....wtf is that deal with that ? lol i know statistically the mustang is better but idk its weird..i guess i like the birds handeling better ( not to diss any stangs out there )
 
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