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The name isn't the damn problem. It's that the upcoming 45mpg MKZ hybrid is the exact same ****ing car as the upcoming 45mpg Fusion hybrid :rolleyes:
Not exactly the same! This one will have a higher price tag because it says Lincoln! :cool:
 

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Not exactly the same! This one will have a higher price tag because it says Lincoln! :cool:
And, if recent Lincolns are any judge, a more hideous grill.

IMO, anyway.

RwP
 

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Here's what ford should have done....you see all those new Jaguar vehicles running around? From what I have heard, all of those where Ford designs that where being worked up while ford still owned Jag....they should have taken all of THOSE vehicles, and made them the new Lincoln line-up, instead of their current offerings...seriously, none of them are exciting, at all, in any way. They are nice, sure, but so is a top-end Ford, and no Lincoln has anything to offer that isn't available in it's fully optioned Ford counterpart. But what do I know, after all, this isn't your father's Oldsmobile ;)
 

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The current XJ and XK are Jag designs through and through. No doubt their development took place under Ford's ownership but they were designed from the start to be Jags, replacing their predecessors. The XF on the other hand is based on the LS/Retrobird/S-type DEW98 platform, and yes that was squandered potential for a new Lincoln.

Lincoln potentially being christened "the Lincoln Motor Company" is the most daft incipid idea Ford has floated around since creating the Versailles, the badge engineered lump that essentially became the archetype for Lincoln's current Fordtastic model lineup. If someone in the company actually thinks the the divisions name is the problem, their head is buried in the sand.

The only hope for turning around Lincoln is a scorched earth sweep of the entire division. Ditch the walrus styling, stop basing the entire range directly on Ford's full model lineup, in fact stop with the notion that having a "full model lineup" is a necessity(I question that with all automakers as well). Get rid of the stupid, confusing, failure that is the MK_ naming system. You're not a German or Japanese automaker and Cadillac's success dabbling with alphanumerics at least stands for something they had before adopting it (Seville/Catara/Deville Touring Sedan), what does MKZ stand for? "Mark Zephyr"?:rolleyes:

And targeting the middle-luxury segments is such a low aim it's pathetic. Lincoln once was briefly on par with world class marques, hell, at worst on par with Cadillac. Trying to position a formerly loss-leader exclusivity division into a volume mover absolutely kills brand equity, Cadillac learned that in the 80s and Lincoln should have been more observant of it.

They'd be better off at this point axing the entire division for a few years, turning all their dealer networks into Ford stores and releasing 1-2 truly exclusive luxury models down the road with the Lincoln or Continental badge. That, and only that would shake the stink that is on that division today..
 

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To all you guys who think "Lincoln Motor Company" is a new term, here is a share of stock for Lincoln that was sold in 1919:

 

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Yeah and no one who is currently alive and foreseeably living remembers when it was.

And again, this is way too shallow to do anything good for the brand. And it's a freaking lie since Lincoln doesn't build motors.
 

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I agree the MK thing is horrible...especially when trying to look up parts, you have to think on it for a minute...is it a car? Is it a truck? Is it a "crossover"? The only one that you definately know what is is, and don't have to think on it, is the Navigator, but that's old sheetmetal, then there wast he Mark LT, but that's just an F150 with way too much chrome.

I think it goes like this though...

MKS = Mark Sedan

MKT = Mark Truck

MKX = Mark Crossover

MKZ = It used to be the Zepher, but it now has to have a matching name...

Mark LT

and they have now killed the magic of the word Mark and the memories of all eight of them...and lets not forget the MK9 concept.

I don't even know what to think of all of it...try to compete with BMW, but then again the Lincoln LS didn't do so well, so that's out.

Emulate what Caddy has become? That'd be fantastic, but would that just be too late behind the curve?
 

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That's what I'd fear, any route they take is going to have to be taken in steps and those steps are built on weak foundations as is. Part of the reason I think putting Lincoln on a hiatus wouldn't be a bad idea is that the brand can reemerge with something totally new that's totally a departure without drowning in its current lineup. They can position it high up the latter and have it bought through the regular Ford dealer network as an exclusive model. Not too different than the pre-war Lincolns actually.
 

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Yeah, but it seems like Ford would be hesitant to try it, given their previous luck with Edsel, and the separate division known as "Continental" which really built a spectacular vehicle, and wasn't really a failure, just failed to stand on it's own as a separate brand...then again Dodge has seemingly turned their RAM pick'em-up truck into a separate division all together lately, nobody seemed to notice...then again, irrelevant to this discussion.
 

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Edsel's failure was essentially that it was another also-ran midpriced car with ungainly styling introduced in a recession.

Oh wait, I just paralleled the current state of Lincoln :tongue:

You can also argue that Lincoln was under Ford's umbrella as a SUPER expensive SUPER exclusive loss leader high end luxury car during the Great Depression. My idea isn't totally unprecedented.
 

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The Lincoln that sells automobiles will eventually end up like your father's Oldsmobile. Shut down. It's been on that heading since ceasing production of the Mark VIII. Someone said that the Mark LT was an F150 with too much chrome, well I'd argue that what little that passes for Lincoln success since then is the Navigator, which was an Expedition with too much chrome. No new ideas have come with a Lincoln badge in a very long time and without the Town Car ro keep cash flowing it's merely a matter of time before Ford closes the doors imo.

This http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/Pages/default.aspx is the Lincoln that builds motors. Or used to....
 

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Read last week that the 2015 Mustang platform may have 1-2 Lincolns built on it. Possibly a small 4 door LSC, and maybe a 2 door version. That would stir some excitement!

Currently I dont think they play up what they have well. The MKZ comes with an optional SHO motor and is more loaded if that is possible and quieter. Read/heard they learned more about sound proofing from Jaguar and put that tech in the MKZ, and others. Also I dont see much on the Navigator anymore which is the ultimate land yacht.

We will see what happens. Regardless I could only afford used no matter what is in their line-up.
 

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Read last week that the 2015 Mustang platform may have 1-2 Lincolns built on it. Possibly a small 4 door LSC, and maybe a 2 door version. That would stir some excitement!

Currently I dont think they play up what they have well. The MKZ comes with an optional SHO motor and is more loaded if that is possible and quieter. Read/heard they learned more about sound proofing from Jaguar and put that tech in the MKZ, and others. Also I dont see much on the Navigator anymore which is the ultimate land yacht.

We will see what happens. Regardless I could only afford used no matter what is in their line-up.
Too bad they screwed up every opportunity to do that in the past. The people on the MN12 team believed they were designing a platform that would be used on more than just the 'bird/Cougar and Mark, a platform that would be used for sedans as well, but that never happened. The DEW98 platform was supposed to be more for Ford than just the Lincoln LS and Thunderbird, yet they decided to kill that too. They had a head start 25 years ago and then squandered everything they have done since then. The Mustang could have had an IRS 20 years ago, Ford and Lincoln/Mercury could have been the standard of the world, but they squandered it to build Explorers. Ford is only just now climbing itself out of the hole its been digging for the last two decades. The rest of the world is so far ahead when it comes to chassis tech is ridiculous. Its why every car chassis they are using right now was aped from Volvo (Focus/Taurus/MKS/Explorer) or Mazda (Fiesta/Fusion/MKZ), because they sold their only modern platform (DEW98) with Jaguar who still uses it. At least Ford was lucky to have access to those brands and their designs or else we still would probably be using the original Taurus and Escort platforms from the 80s, alongside more Fox and Panther cars.

Ford was in a bad spot, at least they've tried to recover. I'd like to see what happens in the next five years.
 

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The Focus and Fiesta are Ford Europe designs, Not Volvo or mazda designs. In those two cars cases it's a good thing since, until the Focus, Ford North America consistantly failed at producing subcompacts that weren't penalty boxes. Europe in contrast were very well versed in the segment since big cars aren't popular there.

The upcoming Fusion is also a Ford design, replacing the Euro Mondeo.
 

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The Focus and Fiesta are Ford Europe designs, Not Volvo or mazda designs. In those two cars cases it's a good thing since, until the Focus, Ford North America consistantly failed at producing subcompacts that weren't penalty boxes. Europe in contrast were very well versed in the segment since big cars aren't popular there.

The upcoming Fusion is also a Ford design, replacing the Euro Mondeo.
Much of the tech that Europe packed into small cars during the 2000s came from Volvo and Mazda however. Its the same tech packed into the Volvo C30 and Mazda 2. The 4cyl engines are straight Mazda designs and the 5cyls are straight Volvo. The current Fusion/MKZ is straight Mazda 6 and the I have a feeling that the new one shares a lot in common with that architecture. The Mondeo has had a ton of Volvo under it for years...
 

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The relations between Mazda and in particular Volvo have been declining for quite a while, especially now that the latter is no longer under Ford's umbrella. The new platforms, with the exception of the Volvo based D3(and variants) for the foreseeable moment, are based Ford's new global platforms rather than Mazda derivatives. The 2013 Fusion platform is all new, it's even got MacStruts up front in place of the 6's SLAs.

As for the Engines/drivelines, if they are good, they're good. No reason to adopt driveline patriotism after some of the 4cyl lumps Ford designed in the 80s/90s. Plus, as we know, the SCs M5R2 was Mazda derived and I don't hear many people clamoring for it being a T5.
 

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The relations between Mazda and in particular Volvo have been declining for quite a while, especially now that the latter is no longer under Ford's umbrella. The new platforms, with the exception of the Volvo based D3(and variants) for the foreseeable moment, are based Ford's new global platforms rather than Mazda derivatives. The 2013 Fusion platform is all new, it's even got MacStruts up front in place of the 6's SLAs.

As for the Engines/drivelines, if they are good, they're good. No reason to adopt driveline patriotism after some of the 4cyl lumps Ford designed in the 80s/90s. Plus, as we know, the SCs M5R2 was Mazda derived and I don't hear many people clamoring for it being a T5.
So Ford going back to MacStruts in the Fusion is actually a step backwards, nice. As far as standard transmissions go, Ford hasnt made their own since the 70s. I have an M5R2 in my F-150 and its a great transmission, though I'd rather have a ZF5. My point is the R&D at Ford isnt that great and they've got a bit of catching up to do...
 

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You'll get no argument from me about that. But I think the problem today is the recent past "home grown" R&D had been riddled with problems and the growing trend of pseudo globalism is creating models and platforms that are trying to satisfy both super sprawled and super dense countries. GM has been on a similar path with their reliance Opel. The thing is though, they are all new cars, unlike much of the competition, developed by legitimate Ford subsidies. It's very rare for a volume automaker to do a clean sweep platform AND engine/drivetrain lineup for a new model. The current engine lineups, weather Ford or Mazda derived, seem to be perfectly capable-excellent in today's market so why spend big bucks redeveloping them?

With the New Fusion, most people don't know what the differences are between SLAs and struts and don't have the ambitions to find the limitations, if there are any for that matter. Ford hasn't done a half bad job with struts in the likes of S197s(which can readily out-handle an older SLA car, even with the SRA out back) and if they're simpler to manufacturer/service with better handling than their predecessor, who's going to complain? Especially if the fit/finish, interior, styling, power and economy are good?


The sad fact of the matter, as it appears anyway, is that Ford is going all in on building quality, reliable, appliances in the likes of Toyota and distancing themselves from enthusiast cars. The dissolving of SVT, the rapidly growing exclusivity of Mustang and the severely eroded offerings in the Ford Racing catalog speak volumes to that.
 
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