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Discussion Starter #1
I'm sure most if not all of you are aware of the current hostage situation taking place in Midland City, AL. If not, just google it - and you can be quickly filled in on what little details are known 4 days into this situation.
My simple and direct question is for anyone who is knowledgable on the subject of Special Ops, FBI Hostage Rescue Team or anything related - whether you currently serve (and are allowed to discuss such matters), are retired or are simply a more knowledgable enthusiast than myself:

What can they do?

In other words, what are the options at this point? Take into consideration the physical layout of this bunker. Obviously storming in the door is not an option as it would risk the life of the boy, not to mention the officers.
The only other access is a small PVC pipe.
I just don't believe this is going to end well. He has nothing to live for when you consider his age, past and current record and his anti-America/anti-government views.
Obviously I really hope I am wrong and that this situation ends soon and with the child safe. And it goes without saying that my thoughts and prayers are with the community and families.
I have tried and am currently trying to find blogs/forums discussing the situation of what the options are/how similar situations usually end, but have had no luck so far. And I always like to turn to this forum as it has many diverse members!

Sorry for the long post, but this situation frustrates me. I hate seeing innocent people harmed by maniacs. Plus this one is happening less than 4 hours from me. Plus I have always had a deep interest in and respect for ALL law enforcement departments.

Feel free to post whatever you like - even if you don't have an answer to my questions.

Thank you.
 

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The least risky for the police would be to gas the place when he's asleep but anything strong enough to knock that guy out while he's dozing is probably going to be very bad news for the 5yr old.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

If the guy stops communicating/negotiating, I'm not sure what other options would be possible.


---
The sad part is that this just adds more fuel to the fire for gun control advocates.
Instead of blaming the maniac and our gov't inability to deal with crazies, they'll blame the AR15, AK47, Glock, or (god help us) the garden variety shotgun he has previously been seen patrolling his property with.


-g
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Good post - I agree - and good article as well.
My first thought was gas, but my immediate second thought was how that would affect the boy - especially considering his current health issues.
At least one update I read today said that the situation is becoming more tense - which makes sense because it has been going on so long. Also a local TV station released audio of the FBI negotiator speaking to the suspect (http://blog.al.com/montgomery/2013/01/wsfa-tv_releases_video_of_nego.html)

What are thoughts on this? I believe it was approximately 24hours into the situation. Seems pretty forceful/demanding of the negotiator. Is that sign that attempts at being polite and understanding didn't work?

And while I do not want this post to turn into even more debate over "gun control" I do agree with your statement. I also think it's important to note that the bus driver he killed was done using a handgun. And he is believed to be armed with a common shotgun, as you pointed out. No "assault weapons." That is all I will say concerning that subject.
 

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This country has a mental health problem disguised as a gun problem and a tyranny problem disguised as a security problem.
- Joe Rogan
 

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Discussion Starter #5
http://www.seattlepi.com/news/crime/article/Police-haul-away-school-bus-in-Alabama-standoff-4237995.php

New article. First time I've seen options mentioned. It says authorities do not want to do anything to "agitate" the suspect such as gassing the place and/or cutting the power.
It also states (along with almost every other article) that he will eventually have to give up. And that they must convince him that everything will be ok if he just walks out with the boy unharmed.

Does that actually work though?! Because I don't think so. This isn't an episode of CSI or a movie. He is anti-government which means he is anti-law enforcement, which means he will most likely not do what they ask. That entire quote in the article seems ridiculous to me. No disrespect to the authorities.... perhaps I'm wrong. They are the professionals after all.

So what then, I ask again? (sorry)
 

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I hate government involvement / big brother as much as the next guy, I just don't take 5-year olds captive!

Obviously one more nut job the world would be better without.
 

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Candygram!

Landshark!

:D

Pouring ether down the vent would be effective; it's cold, so it would stay close to the ground, and emergency responders can respond within a few minutes. :facepalm:

However; Raising the CO2 level till everyone goes to sleep is equally effective, and less explosive. :) And fairly easy; dry ice is cheap.
 

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This country has a mental health problem disguised as a gun problem and a tyranny problem disguised as a security problem.
- Joe Rogan
Agreed.

Well said.

Co2 is toxic to humans at only 4% of the air volume.
Agreed. CO2 is deadly.

Gas the place but with something else.

My God, I can't believe it's come to this :facepalm: .... Is it time now to allow not only teachers to carry but bus drivers as well? Do we now have to put armed guards on school buses? Personally I'd like to see a much closer look taken at the mentally ill in this country. Time to round up the crazy old men in towns across the country and take a very very close look at their mental state and access to firearms. First it was the firemen shooting in Webster, NY - now this... I have to wonder what next?

I doubt anyone can argue to the contrary that something must be done to stop the killing. The question is what and how...
 

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Scenario 1: if negotiations succeed, the old man breaks down, and the child is released, LE "wins."

Scenario 2: if things continue, negotiations break down, and harm comes to the child, the LE team on site will be vilified for doing nothing.

Scenario 3: if things continue, negotiations break down, and they attempt a rescue (say with
gassing), and the kid survives, the LE team "wins".

Scenario 4: if things continue, negotiations break down, and they attempt a rescue (say with gassing), and the kid comes to harm, the LE team "loses" but not as bad as in Scenario 2.

Of course they will claim that they won't do anything to agitate the perp -- until they try something (the guy has a TV down there so he can monitor the newscasts). Logic will dictate that they drag things out until negotiations break down -- they convince the guy that they won't try anything, and then they go in.

Without making light of the situation, a parallel situation of the trade-offs about whether human behavior is to act or not to act was a study of soccer goal keepers done a few years ago. The gist of the study (discussed below) was that in a given situation, under pressure, humans will choose to act vs stand still b/c if they act, well, "at least they tried."
http://www.npr.org/2011/08/02/138922339/under-pressure-soccer-goalies-tend-to-dive-right

BTW, where did you read that the kid has health issues? I read that he's aspergers and ADHD so the meds he's on are likely to treat mental -- not health issues. The biggest problem is likely the weight/lung capacity delta between him and the guy they really want to knock out.

They passed in comics + coloring books for the kid so I'm not sure how likely it is that this guy has an advanced filtration system on his vent pipe. Something like this:
http://www.americanbombshelter.com/Safe-Cell-NBC-overpressure-air-filters.htm
It's not exactly cheap so I'm not sure how well kitted out this guy's shelter is....


More pics -- inc one of the crazy old man
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2271325/Terrifying-ordeal-Alabama-boy-held-hostage-underground-bunker-Jimmy-Lee-Dykes.html#axzz2Jklqkmco

This cannot end well though.
 

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Heeelllllll yeah, only in the south.
I'm surprised this isn't in Florida.
But it's close enough.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Good info...thanks. Can't remember if/where I heard he had health issues. Perhaps I was thinking of the autism and misspoke or if early reports were inaccurate. Which is possible as details are still being kept away from the media but for good reason.
 

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Meh, I trust the FBI.

Remember how well they and the ATF handled the Branch Davidians at Waco? ;)

They're experts at this seige/stand off thing...
 

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" Time to round up the crazy old men in towns across the country and take a very very close look at their mental state and access to firearms." And the crazy young ones too I'd assume. I think if we look at all the mass shooting recently most were young crazies.
 

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Funny posted that, just seconds ago I read a local news report about the same thing.

Just crazy.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Yes it's over! Glad I was wrong - it ended well. Or as well as possible. Just waiting on details of the raid. That stuff fascinates me - much respect for all law enforcement represented there.
I've read the FBI was able to get a camera in there. Then created 2 distractions right before they entered. One local said he heard 2 "booms". One was possibly an explosion (to destroy the main door?) the other most likely a gun shot. Either an agent killing the suspect or the suspect killing himself. We will see.
Also one report said the suspect believed the gov. was hiding aliens.......
 
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