I HAVE A 92 SPORT WITH THE 5.0 HO ALLREADY PUT IN 3.73 GEARS AND SHIFT KIT a 180 stat removed air silencer and cut off muffs soon will have complete exhaust sytem right from engine true dual BUT WANT MORE POWER MY ENGINE has 85,000 on it w aht can i do for more power cheap any help would be great
More Power
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Well, some easy stuff would be:
pulleys
deleting smog pump (somewhere around 10hp)
getting rid of that damn fan, and putting in an e-fan
headers
cold air induction with a bigger MAF and K&N air filter
i know there's more, just things that popped in my head
pulleys
deleting smog pump (somewhere around 10hp)
getting rid of that damn fan, and putting in an e-fan
headers
cold air induction with a bigger MAF and K&N air filter
i know there's more, just things that popped in my head
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863 Posts
Go with a Trick flow upper and lower intake. Very nice intake with great flow numbers. Buddy of mine just got on to go on his project mustang were working on.
Later,
jay
Later,
jay
I don't know if you all read 5.0 Mustang and Super Fords, but in the latest issue they compared a new intake with Cobra and Trick Flow intakes. The new one, dubbed the Typhoon, pumped out pretty good numbers and produced 20 more ponies compared to the Cobra but about the same amount of torque. When compared to the Trick Flow, the new intake was lacking, producing 20 less ponies. The only major consideration about these intakes are the prices. The new Typhoon is about $349, the Cobra about $399, and the Trick Flow $449.
So, if you're willing to spend the cash, go for Trick Flow.
So, if you're willing to spend the cash, go for Trick Flow.
You guys are still going about making your cars fast the wrong way. Looking at what hp someone else got and expecting it to get the same results in an MN12 isn't going to happen. The cars are to heavy, the trans is geared to for the highway, the EEC is calibrated differently than the Mustangs, and the exhaust is too restrictive.
Just sticking miss-matched parts in or on the engine will only waste you money and in some cases make you slower. Throwing in a large cam that produces low torque that for a standard trans and lighter car (B303) will make the car totally unresponsive in traffic or everyday driving. The same for the large intakes. You want components that compliment each other or a complete system. Bigger is not better in this case.
You got the gears, now get the exhaust done. custom long tubes, or JBA shorties. Build up that AOD or swap it for the conversion with the 4R70W wide ration. GER sells a pretty good one. Or swap to the 4R70W and get the electronics to support it from Baumann if you stay with the auto. With the AOD you should get the 2800 rpm but no more than a 3200 stall converter since it stalls in every gear. Where as the 4R70W installation you can lock up the converter where you want it and not have the mushy pedal in 3rd and 4th gear. A good trans cooler is required.
The smog pump doesn't rob you of that much hp so don't sweat it. Electric fan is good, but you have to upgrade the alt. to support it. Get the 02 Mustang GT MAS, 80mm. You need a chip to run it. The 70mm T/B will just bog you down, no throttle responce unless you have the heads, cam, intake and exhaust to support it. 65mm is the way to go. People are still making 350+ rwhp with it. U/D will give you problems in traffic if you live in a hot area since it slows the water pump down. Then it will also tax the alt. So be ready for those problems.
Just sticking miss-matched parts in or on the engine will only waste you money and in some cases make you slower. Throwing in a large cam that produces low torque that for a standard trans and lighter car (B303) will make the car totally unresponsive in traffic or everyday driving. The same for the large intakes. You want components that compliment each other or a complete system. Bigger is not better in this case.
You got the gears, now get the exhaust done. custom long tubes, or JBA shorties. Build up that AOD or swap it for the conversion with the 4R70W wide ration. GER sells a pretty good one. Or swap to the 4R70W and get the electronics to support it from Baumann if you stay with the auto. With the AOD you should get the 2800 rpm but no more than a 3200 stall converter since it stalls in every gear. Where as the 4R70W installation you can lock up the converter where you want it and not have the mushy pedal in 3rd and 4th gear. A good trans cooler is required.
The smog pump doesn't rob you of that much hp so don't sweat it. Electric fan is good, but you have to upgrade the alt. to support it. Get the 02 Mustang GT MAS, 80mm. You need a chip to run it. The 70mm T/B will just bog you down, no throttle responce unless you have the heads, cam, intake and exhaust to support it. 65mm is the way to go. People are still making 350+ rwhp with it. U/D will give you problems in traffic if you live in a hot area since it slows the water pump down. Then it will also tax the alt. So be ready for those problems.
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1,848 Posts
Listen to Lonnie, he knows what he's talking about.
One thing though, if you do undertake the task of switching over to the 4R70W, do not use the Baumann. Work with an EEC from a 94 or 95 Mustang GT Auto and you'll have to switch some of the pins, but you'll have alot more control than the Baumann.
Those are words (but not an exact quote) from Jerry himself, he told me the best idea was to go with the EEC and not the Baumann.
One thing though, if you do undertake the task of switching over to the 4R70W, do not use the Baumann. Work with an EEC from a 94 or 95 Mustang GT Auto and you'll have to switch some of the pins, but you'll have alot more control than the Baumann.
Those are words (but not an exact quote) from Jerry himself, he told me the best idea was to go with the EEC and not the Baumann.
Yes that is true about the Baumann set up, it's difficult to work with like the EEC Tuner and doesn't have all the functions. I didn't bring up swapping EECs since most people don't have the ability to rewire their harness to the Mustang and get in over their heads.
In the future, I plan on buying a new longblock from say Summit or another manufacturer and drop it in. My engine already has 140,000+ miles on it and the tranny has probably never been re-built. (I've only owned the car for three months.) In the next year, I plan on working up the auto tranny, or maybe swapping it out entirely. Jerry Modding it and a rebuild are definite plans. The suspension needs upgrades too if I'm to have a lot of power in the engine bay.
Seemingly, if I were to buy the longblock and rebuild the tranny, the car would be fine. I'd need a new intake, and to upgrade the MAF and TB eventually, but those can be done as time progresses.
Any thoughts on my plan of attack for my Bird? If so, please do tell. I'm a newbie and appreciate all info provided.
Thanks
Seemingly, if I were to buy the longblock and rebuild the tranny, the car would be fine. I'd need a new intake, and to upgrade the MAF and TB eventually, but those can be done as time progresses.
Any thoughts on my plan of attack for my Bird? If so, please do tell. I'm a newbie and appreciate all info provided.
Thanks
HEADERS
THE HEADERS WERE GOING TO BE MODIFIED BUT JBA HAS A SET MADE FOR THE 89-93 BIRD FOR $529 SO I THINK I WILL GO FOR THAT AND HAVE EVERYTHING ELSE CUTOM BUILT
BUT I WAS WONDERING ABOUT THE COMPUTER SINCE THE 5.0 IS TEH SAME AS THE MUSTANG COULDNT YOU JUST GET A COMPUTER FROM A MUSTANG ?
THE HEADERS WERE GOING TO BE MODIFIED BUT JBA HAS A SET MADE FOR THE 89-93 BIRD FOR $529 SO I THINK I WILL GO FOR THAT AND HAVE EVERYTHING ELSE CUTOM BUILT
BUT I WAS WONDERING ABOUT THE COMPUTER SINCE THE 5.0 IS TEH SAME AS THE MUSTANG COULDNT YOU JUST GET A COMPUTER FROM A MUSTANG ?
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2,073 Posts
Hello All,
Yes, Listen to Lonnie for a usual he is dead on. If you want to get into some upgrades under the hood I would upgrade the heads to maybe the trickflows or something along those lines. The Trickflow "Street Heat" intake would be a good choice and it will fit "tightly" under the stock hood. Upgrade to a 73MM MAF, 24lb injectors and a 190 LPH fuel pump and of course you will need a chip to truly benefit from all the above components. Obviously the exhaust needs to be upgraded.
The Mark VIII fan works well but draws a lot of amps to run. I went with the Flex-A-Lite 18" fan setup and have had zero temp issues at all and picked up a few ponies. The "Jerry" built 4R70W would be the way I would recommend but you will spend some coin to get everything needed. The list goes on depending on your wallet
Regards
Mark
Yes, Listen to Lonnie for a usual he is dead on. If you want to get into some upgrades under the hood I would upgrade the heads to maybe the trickflows or something along those lines. The Trickflow "Street Heat" intake would be a good choice and it will fit "tightly" under the stock hood. Upgrade to a 73MM MAF, 24lb injectors and a 190 LPH fuel pump and of course you will need a chip to truly benefit from all the above components. Obviously the exhaust needs to be upgraded.
The Mark VIII fan works well but draws a lot of amps to run. I went with the Flex-A-Lite 18" fan setup and have had zero temp issues at all and picked up a few ponies. The "Jerry" built 4R70W would be the way I would recommend but you will spend some coin to get everything needed. The list goes on depending on your wallet
Regards
Mark
lonnie I disagree...
Although some of ur remarks are ideal, I feel ur wrong in some parts of it. As for the upper/lower intakes, any thing different from you stock intakes will make a + differance.
If any given MN12 has a mildly moded car are you saying that a cam would hurt it???
As for my car I have a 91' 302 HO, and i have and elec. fan with u/d pullies in the florida heat and it does fine.. Might I add this is also with the stock Alt. PLUS 2 12" subs etc... SO i dont believe you would need to change the alt.
Any sane mod you do to these cars will be on the plus side.
I would say the best mods i bought for my stang eater were the 3.73 gears and the
pullies/ elec. fan...
8astangs .02 cents
Although some of ur remarks are ideal, I feel ur wrong in some parts of it. As for the upper/lower intakes, any thing different from you stock intakes will make a + differance.
If any given MN12 has a mildly moded car are you saying that a cam would hurt it???
As for my car I have a 91' 302 HO, and i have and elec. fan with u/d pullies in the florida heat and it does fine.. Might I add this is also with the stock Alt. PLUS 2 12" subs etc... SO i dont believe you would need to change the alt.
Any sane mod you do to these cars will be on the plus side.
I would say the best mods i bought for my stang eater were the 3.73 gears and the
pullies/ elec. fan...
8astangs .02 cents
Jeff, schools in.........
Well everyone has his or her opinions. When you’ve built and raced as many engines that I have then you might have a clue.
I never said that the aftermarket intakes wouldn’t make more power. Torque is what gets you moving not the hp. Going to a large intake will cost you torque, the trade off for hp. So the idea is to stay with long runner style intakes. Long runners produce low-end torque. The more torque the faster you accelerate. This is why higher numerical gears cause the car to accelerate quicker, they multiply the torque. Going with a larger intake with shorter runners kills bottom end torque but increases top end hp. This is the same case with the larger ports of larger intakes. Your air velocity is slowed down at low/mid rpms so your not filling the cylinders and lose hp/tq. For a stock to mild engine, especially in the heavy MN12s you want to stay under 240 cfm per runner. The stock intake is around 190. This is why the best all around intake for these cars has been the Cobra intake. It has the long runners, somewhat larger ports and 225 cfm per runner. The street TFS intake is probably the next best. Your stock heads are maxed out at 155 cfm from .450” lift and above. So what’s the use going to anything larger than those two intakes on a stock or mild engine, your not going to make any more power. So go ahead and spend your money on that Holley System Max or something larger and we’ll all watch you going slower.
Here’s a rule of thumb on camshafts for the 5.0…
Unless your running anything other than the stock heads or stock ported heads your wasting your time with a cam that is over .500” lift. Even a set of ported stock heads will only flow 220 cfm @ .550” at the most. Duration…the amount of time (in degrees) the valves are held open. The low 9.1 compression on these engines means that you need to keep the duration around 225 @ .050 lift since the longer the valves stay open the less time the piston has to build up the pressure in the cylinder. So if you increase the compression you can also increase your duration without losing cylinder pressure. Also the higher the duration the higher the power curve begins. So the trade off here again is no low-end torque. Now lets look at lobe center… This spec has as much influence on the performance as duration. Most performance cams have between 106 – 112 degrees. The closer the angle the further up the rpm the power curve is. Now with this said, going to the B303 cam specs out at .480” lift 224 degrees @ .050 with 112 lobe center. So you have great lift but the duration and lobe center move the power curve up causing you to lose low-end torque. The better cam choice would be the E303 with it’s .498” 220 degrees and 110 lobe center. Just for comparison the stock GT cam is .444” 204 degrees 116-lobe center. The reason for the wide angle is it reduces the scavenging in the cylinder leaving some gases. This is suppose to improve emissions by reburning the mixture and helps build pressure. The Tbird cam has slightly better duration and less lobe center creating more lower torque to make up for the squished intake and poor exhaust.
Another cheap mod would be to install the Cobra 1.7 rockers on the stock engine. As long as the valve springs can hold up (less than 50K miles) to the increased lift. If not you will lose power and have what’s called valve float. Adding these rockers will give you .030” lift and a degree or 2 of duration, which comes out to about 8 –10 hp through most of the rpm band.
So like I said before, bigger is not always better. You need to have components that will work together, compliment each other and not mismatched.
As for the U/D pulleys…
I lived in SC, and traveled to GA and FL weekly for 18 years. I bought the car in SC and didn’t move out to CA until 96. That being said, one of the first mods done on the car was U/D pulleys during the conversion done by STEEDA. The car ran hot all the time. Even with the 180 tstat. I wasn’t the only one. My dealership had trouble with 4 of us owning 91 and 92 5.0 Tbirds. They tried to get a recall on them because of this. When the U/Ds were removed it just barely maintained cool. When caught in traffic with the A/C on it would climb to the high end. So with the U/Ds back on it was worse. I installed a pusher fan and it helped a little. Then installed the Griffin rad and still had the problem. So I ran with a Black Magic puller and the smaller fan as a pusher. This was fine except that the alt. couldn’t keep up…U/Ds again. Coming through TX and AZ the car stayed hot to the point of having to run the heater. I now have a Mark VIII fan installed and moved up to a bigger alt. to keep up. Get some real mods under your hood and see if how long that stock rad. and electric fan will keep it cool at 113 outside air temp and the A/C blasting.
Schools out…………
Well everyone has his or her opinions. When you’ve built and raced as many engines that I have then you might have a clue.
I never said that the aftermarket intakes wouldn’t make more power. Torque is what gets you moving not the hp. Going to a large intake will cost you torque, the trade off for hp. So the idea is to stay with long runner style intakes. Long runners produce low-end torque. The more torque the faster you accelerate. This is why higher numerical gears cause the car to accelerate quicker, they multiply the torque. Going with a larger intake with shorter runners kills bottom end torque but increases top end hp. This is the same case with the larger ports of larger intakes. Your air velocity is slowed down at low/mid rpms so your not filling the cylinders and lose hp/tq. For a stock to mild engine, especially in the heavy MN12s you want to stay under 240 cfm per runner. The stock intake is around 190. This is why the best all around intake for these cars has been the Cobra intake. It has the long runners, somewhat larger ports and 225 cfm per runner. The street TFS intake is probably the next best. Your stock heads are maxed out at 155 cfm from .450” lift and above. So what’s the use going to anything larger than those two intakes on a stock or mild engine, your not going to make any more power. So go ahead and spend your money on that Holley System Max or something larger and we’ll all watch you going slower.
Here’s a rule of thumb on camshafts for the 5.0…
Unless your running anything other than the stock heads or stock ported heads your wasting your time with a cam that is over .500” lift. Even a set of ported stock heads will only flow 220 cfm @ .550” at the most. Duration…the amount of time (in degrees) the valves are held open. The low 9.1 compression on these engines means that you need to keep the duration around 225 @ .050 lift since the longer the valves stay open the less time the piston has to build up the pressure in the cylinder. So if you increase the compression you can also increase your duration without losing cylinder pressure. Also the higher the duration the higher the power curve begins. So the trade off here again is no low-end torque. Now lets look at lobe center… This spec has as much influence on the performance as duration. Most performance cams have between 106 – 112 degrees. The closer the angle the further up the rpm the power curve is. Now with this said, going to the B303 cam specs out at .480” lift 224 degrees @ .050 with 112 lobe center. So you have great lift but the duration and lobe center move the power curve up causing you to lose low-end torque. The better cam choice would be the E303 with it’s .498” 220 degrees and 110 lobe center. Just for comparison the stock GT cam is .444” 204 degrees 116-lobe center. The reason for the wide angle is it reduces the scavenging in the cylinder leaving some gases. This is suppose to improve emissions by reburning the mixture and helps build pressure. The Tbird cam has slightly better duration and less lobe center creating more lower torque to make up for the squished intake and poor exhaust.
Another cheap mod would be to install the Cobra 1.7 rockers on the stock engine. As long as the valve springs can hold up (less than 50K miles) to the increased lift. If not you will lose power and have what’s called valve float. Adding these rockers will give you .030” lift and a degree or 2 of duration, which comes out to about 8 –10 hp through most of the rpm band.
So like I said before, bigger is not always better. You need to have components that will work together, compliment each other and not mismatched.
As for the U/D pulleys…
I lived in SC, and traveled to GA and FL weekly for 18 years. I bought the car in SC and didn’t move out to CA until 96. That being said, one of the first mods done on the car was U/D pulleys during the conversion done by STEEDA. The car ran hot all the time. Even with the 180 tstat. I wasn’t the only one. My dealership had trouble with 4 of us owning 91 and 92 5.0 Tbirds. They tried to get a recall on them because of this. When the U/Ds were removed it just barely maintained cool. When caught in traffic with the A/C on it would climb to the high end. So with the U/Ds back on it was worse. I installed a pusher fan and it helped a little. Then installed the Griffin rad and still had the problem. So I ran with a Black Magic puller and the smaller fan as a pusher. This was fine except that the alt. couldn’t keep up…U/Ds again. Coming through TX and AZ the car stayed hot to the point of having to run the heater. I now have a Mark VIII fan installed and moved up to a bigger alt. to keep up. Get some real mods under your hood and see if how long that stock rad. and electric fan will keep it cool at 113 outside air temp and the A/C blasting.
Schools out…………
Re: Computers
Lonnie, excellent lesson as always! "bigger is not always better"...how many times does that need to be said!
Nope..computers are not the same. I've heard they can be re-pinned though...but why? A Mustang computer won't directly get you more power...BIG BOB said:
Lonnie, excellent lesson as always! "bigger is not always better"...how many times does that need to be said!
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20 Posts
bigger is not better...read here..
Look at the few mods I have...and my times. Stock 55mm MAF,stock 60mm TB,stock intake, never even had valve covers off! It is in good tune with only 67,000 miles. I run at the track almost every week and recently put a C&L 76mm setup on and lost MPH and .2 ! SO..bigger is not lways better...but everyone has had great luck with the C&L 76mm..so I got one. I went back to stock with the BBK cold air and ran (3) 13.9's last night with my slowest time being a 14.1 in 75* weather and 80% humidity. Only othe recent mod I did was a phenolic intake spacer for less heat soak and more track consistancy. In a heavier car you want good lowend...I beat cars with MANY more mods all the time because they get carried away. A Cobra intake would be plenty and any bigger not worth it. I would install 1.7RR's before doing a cam...more lift but still keep stock duration...same thing Ford did with the Cobra's..the 93-95 Cobra's have the SAME cam as the HO T-Birds with the 1.7RR's for more lift. The Crane Energizer's are cheap..like $170 and work well. DO NOT go too big with exhaust either...when I was still auto I put full exhaust on and only gaines .1-.2 in 1/4 time. I PI Stallion converter is nice...never heard anything good about GER..but never know.
Look at the few mods I have...and my times.
Stock 55mm MAF,stock 60mm TB,stock intake, never even had valve covers off! It is in good tune with only 67,000 miles. I run at the track almost every week and recently put a C&L 76mm setup on and lost MPH and .2 ! SO..bigger is not lways better...but everyone has had great luck with the C&L 76mm..so I got one. I went back to stock with the BBK cold air and ran (3) 13.9's last night with my slowest time being a 14.1 in 75* weather and 80% humidity. Only othe recent mod I did was a phenolic intake spacer for less heat soak and more track consistancy. In a heavier car you want good lowend...I beat cars with MANY more mods all the time because they get carried away. A Cobra intake would be plenty and any bigger not worth it. I would install 1.7RR's before doing a cam...more lift but still keep stock duration...same thing Ford did with the Cobra's..the 93-95 Cobra's have the SAME cam as the HO T-Birds with the 1.7RR's for more lift. The Crane Energizer's are cheap..like $170 and work well. DO NOT go too big with exhaust either...when I was still auto I put full exhaust on and only gaines .1-.2 in 1/4 time. I PI Stallion converter is nice...never heard anything good about GER..but never know.schools not out yet...
So are you saying hp has no factor in this? You could have the nastiest low end torque number but after that 60 foot runs out so will that car. You also need hp to keep the thing moving correct? I would think that the hp gives the car torque/acceleration... Obviously you dont want an intake off of a 502. But my post was any intake other than stock would be a benefit. as long as you can get the air in and out quick as possible ur okay. And as for a cam yes its a trade off, they make many different cams out there for your application. It all depends on how ur motor is set up... People should/have enough common sence not to buy huge parts for their cars. I would think when some one looking for headers for our cars wouldnt go out and my 2.5"or 3".... You may have lots of experiance in building motors and racing them. Im not doubting that but obviously any aftermarket part with a sane selection will improve hp/TORQUE...
8astangs .02 cents
RING RING time for recess...
So are you saying hp has no factor in this? You could have the nastiest low end torque number but after that 60 foot runs out so will that car. You also need hp to keep the thing moving correct? I would think that the hp gives the car torque/acceleration... Obviously you dont want an intake off of a 502. But my post was any intake other than stock would be a benefit. as long as you can get the air in and out quick as possible ur okay. And as for a cam yes its a trade off, they make many different cams out there for your application. It all depends on how ur motor is set up... People should/have enough common sence not to buy huge parts for their cars. I would think when some one looking for headers for our cars wouldnt go out and my 2.5"or 3".... You may have lots of experiance in building motors and racing them. Im not doubting that but obviously any aftermarket part with a sane selection will improve hp/TORQUE...
8astangs .02 cents
RING RING time for recess...
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1,848 Posts
How disrespectful, no wonder none of the 'old heads' come around to this 'club' anymore. Lonnie knows what he's preaching about.
He bought his '92 off of the lot, so he's been working on just that one car for over 10 years alone. To imply (even a small amount) that he is wrong is insulting.
-Josh
He bought his '92 off of the lot, so he's been working on just that one car for over 10 years alone. To imply (even a small amount) that he is wrong is insulting.
-Josh
I hope that the "old heads" eventually come around once in a while, they're insanely intelligent about our vehicles.
If I were to venture a guess, when a new mod is installed and you feel a "loss" in horsepower or torque in say, the low end, you are not actually losing that HP or Torque, it is just moved up in the RPM curve. So if you want a lot of low end torque and HP you do not want a huge intake when your car is not sucking in that much air. As you get to higher RPMs, yes more air would be helpful, but not so much as a 90mm MAF or huge TB. From what I saw in his old profile, Lonnie used a C&L 73mm, that is not much larger than the stock 70mm on 94+ birds but it will still help the car breathe a little easier.
Just trying to assuage feelings, thanks for all the help everyone, I appreciate it.
If I were to venture a guess, when a new mod is installed and you feel a "loss" in horsepower or torque in say, the low end, you are not actually losing that HP or Torque, it is just moved up in the RPM curve. So if you want a lot of low end torque and HP you do not want a huge intake when your car is not sucking in that much air. As you get to higher RPMs, yes more air would be helpful, but not so much as a 90mm MAF or huge TB. From what I saw in his old profile, Lonnie used a C&L 73mm, that is not much larger than the stock 70mm on 94+ birds but it will still help the car breathe a little easier.
Just trying to assuage feelings, thanks for all the help everyone, I appreciate it.
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