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I'm just speculating, I don't know the specs but that's a widely available, and presumably will remain available in the long term(10+ years to current production with a huge following) SHOCK with mounting that should be adaptable for reasonable cost. The LX platform is tall though, so the length may be the dealbreaker
Unfortunately I don't think it's going to work.
 

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Discussion Starter #103
I'm just speculating, I don't know the specs but that's a widely available, and presumably will remain available in the long term(10+ years to current production with a huge following) SHOCK with mounting that should be adaptable for reasonable cost. The LX platform is tall though, so the length may be the dealbreaker
Well, I do have a spare set of old struts I was planning on using as the donors. I could experiment and take measurements of these in a few different areas:

  • Length of overall strut vs ours
  • Length of shaft fully extended vs ours fully extended
  • Diameter of strut piston shaft (for modifying the strut mount / "top hat")
  • Diameter of lower strut bolt
  • Distance between the two lower "mounting ears" of the strut body (will it clear the lower control arm to be able to be mounted?)
  • Thread pitch of lower strut nut (alternatively, just cut off the welded nut and bore out the hole if needed)
  • Length of spring perch on this vs length of spring perch on our stock perch (I think this will be the deciding factor)
  • Perhaps make this an "insert" into our OEM strut?
  • Perhaps just slightly grind off where the perch mounts to on this strut body and weld the perch where it matches with our strut body?
  • ^^ Will the welds hold over a long period of time?
  • ^^ If not, what will failure of the welds look like?
  • Will the "wing" of the Dodge strut need to be cut / ground off, or can it stay?
I guess, I can buy one and be our group's guinea pig on some of this stuff above. However, I don't have any fabrication tools or experience. So things like welding / cutting / splicing / whatever you want to call it to make it work for us, will need to be performed / answered by someone else.
 

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Discussion Starter #104

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Which BMW's are close to our weight?

I seem to remember them being a car ours were based on...

The reason I ask is:



That's for a 1991 bmw 3 series front; it's an insert.

they weigh about 3000 pounds...

This is a 89 m7



I'm not sure about the weight classes, but I'm into finding a replacement.


OK, These guys list every 8641 style shock insert:

https://www.soloperformance.com/8641-Series-Koni-Strut-Cartridge_c_87.html

All of the products in this category are Strut Inserts that are installed into your Original Equipment Struts.

If the Original Equipment Strut is sealed the installation requires cutting the top of the OE strut and removing the original internal parts. Please review the "Bolt Through the Bottom of the Strut" installation instructions before ordering.



Our original numbers were: 8641-1209 Front 8041-1202 rear.

**** it, I just sent Koni an email; maybe I'll hear something back.

Someone else want to email Bilstein? :)
 

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Which BMW's are close to our weight?

I seem to remember them being a car ours were based on...
The problem I see with most of the strut inserts is that they don't have a bottom fastener. I don't know how you keep them assembled in the car without that or some custom fabrication of some sort of retainer.

The Konis do offer promise but it's a steep price to pay to get them.

I think a combination of my top mount setup combined with an "adapter" for the bottom mount would let you use some more traditional shocks that have the two bolt bottom mount.
 

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It looks like all the 8641 style ones are the same style as ours were; they have the same install instructions.

I asked koni three things:

I asked for what would it take to get a run of fronts.

I asked for the ones closest to our size/rating.

I asked for dimensions of all of the 8641 series still available. :)

We'll see if they answer. :zdunno: I'd bet we could get 10 sets of the fronts between all of us, maybe 20 is we can get with Sccoa too.

IDK what they would cost, but the ones listed are WAY cheaper than the coilovers listed.

And adding an adjustable perch is not that bad after you cut the donor apart. :)

The race shocks need a threaded retainer at the top; not easy to add without welding.
 

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Discussion Starter #109
This is about as close as I can find to our specs: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/kon-86111256race/overview/

Unfortunately these things aren't cheap. I'll keep looking.
I like this. Specs are indeed really close.

The thing about the inserts w/o a securing nut is that they need something to secure them to the lower control arm. My DD - 2000 Honda Accord (6th gen, 1998 - 2002), uses a fork, #17 / #18, to attach to the lower control arm. This is what we need to make inserts work with our cars. The only problem to solve thereafter would be the mounting of the spring perch. At which point, that would be fairly easy to do for someone with a welder.

 

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I like this. Specs are indeed really close.

The thing about the inserts w/o a securing nut is .....
Well, I've thought about this. To start, this is a totally custom part/design so keep that in mind because I don't have the facilities or time to do this on any kind of scale. The idea I used with the Mitsu 3000GT inserts didn't require a lot of real thought so that was easier. This isn't.

OK, in my home shop I would probably approach this by using already threaded steel tubing as the base for the tube to contain the insert. The reason is that I can probably buy one piece from the local hardware store and cut it in half and have the threaded part for the top of the housing. Now I have a way to thread something over the shock insert to retain it. I would do one of two things for the bottom. I would weld a piece of round plate over the bottom of the tube or not. I would use a piece of 2"x4" rectangular steel tube as the "clamp" that attaches to the LCA. Obviously I would have to cut out one of the 2" sides to make this work. The reason for something that size to give me plenty to work with. I've now built the housing and I can contain the strut insert.

Next I would put the threaded sleeve on the body of the house for the spring I get from some place like Summit.

For the top, I would take my upper mount and make a receiver for the spring using some round tubing and some giant washers welded together.

All in all I believe I could make this. I will need to finish my current project first though.
 

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Which BMW's are close to our weight?

This is a 89 m7

A note: You probably already know this, but these things have the retainer rings to run spring pockets, like the Bilsteins I just tossed onto my car. If the valving and dimensions are similar, as the one on the right is looking like a strong candidate, that might be an idea there.
 

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Discussion Starter #112
Which BMW's are close to our weight?

I seem to remember them being a car ours were based on...

The reason I ask is:



That's for a 1991 bmw 3 series front; it's an insert.

they weigh about 3000 pounds...
MN12 was it's own thing, as previously mentioned here. As for this insert, I guess it wouldn't matter what car it's for so long as it fits and is the right dimensions! Though, the problem with this insert is the lack of a nut / bolt at the bottom to secure it to our strut body as @MaddMartigan stated earlier.

If a fork can be used as I mentioned before, then the last problem would be the lack of a spring perch.

This is a 89 m7



I'm not sure about the weight classes, but I'm into finding a replacement.
I like them, but the problem with these is (again) the lack of a spring perch.

OK, These guys list every 8641 style shock insert:

https://www.soloperformance.com/8641-Series-Koni-Strut-Cartridge_c_87.html

Our original numbers were: 8641-1209 Front 8041-1202 rear.
I visited the link earlier and I wasn't able to follow the website and their part number breakdown. I guess I need a visual. It would help if they had a visual of the actual product....

**** it, I just sent Koni an email; maybe I'll hear something back.

Someone else want to email Bilstein? :)
I tried finding an email for Bilstein earlier. The only thing I found on their website was a phone number. I was at work so I was unable to call, and it's far too late now to call.

A note: You probably already know this, but these things have the retainer rings to run spring pockets, like the Bilsteins I just tossed onto my car. If the valving and dimensions are similar, as the one on the right is looking like a strong candidate, that might be an idea there.
I guess we'd need to know the part number and specs of these particular units to see where they stand.

I hate stock photos for custom modification purposes....
 

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Discussion Starter #113
So I posted my issue / frustration about this on the FB TCCOA page. Bill replied and he said he'd buy the front Vogtlands from me if I were to buy the front QA1s from him. It's a tempting solution, but assuming that I get (at best) $110 for the front Vogtlands, the difference is still more than the cost of this insert mod using the 3000GT inserts. Breaking down the cost of all parts and @MaddMartigan's labor is basically coming out to $550 to do the insert mod. The QA1s, now that I've checked, are $739 and not the $650 I posted (assumed) yesterday. The QA1s would be knocked down to $630 with Bill's offer assuming that he gives me $110 credit for the front Vogtlands is correct.

Sure, Bill's offer is a solution, but it's not really an ideal solution to my issue. I was / am honestly looking forward to the Vogtlands + insert mod setup, but this situation has really put a huge road block in my situation. Also, because I've been buying all these parts over a long period of time, it's been a more affordable approach for me in regards of my obtaining these parts vs having to drop down $600+ at once.

Well, I've thought about this. To start, this is a totally custom part/design so keep that in mind because I don't have the facilities or time to do this on any kind of scale. The idea I used with the Mitsu 3000GT inserts didn't require a lot of real thought so that was easier. This isn't.

OK, in my home shop I would probably approach this by using already threaded steel tubing as the base for the tube to contain the insert. The reason is that I can probably buy one piece from the local hardware store and cut it in half and have the threaded part for the top of the housing. Now I have a way to thread something over the shock insert to retain it. I would do one of two things for the bottom. I would weld a piece of round plate over the bottom of the tube or not. I would use a piece of 2"x4" rectangular steel tube as the "clamp" that attaches to the LCA. Obviously I would have to cut out one of the 2" sides to make this work. The reason for something that size to give me plenty to work with. I've now built the housing and I can contain the strut insert.

Next I would put the threaded sleeve on the body of the house for the spring I get from some place like Summit.

For the top, I would take my upper mount and make a receiver for the spring using some round tubing and some giant washers welded together.

All in all I believe I could make this. I will need to finish my current project first though.
Since you are doing the insert mod for me, I'm going to wait regardless of what happens. That being the case, I'll keep my order with Summit open for the time being while you continue to work on your current project. Once you are done and if I still haven't received the Bilsteins, I'd then cancel my Bilsteins order with Summit and purchase those Koni inserts. Either way, you will be doing magic :).

Someone else want to email Bilstein? :)
I ended up finding an email address for them! It was for their Germany HQ though, so we'll see what happens. Below is what I said in my email to them.

On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 11:29 AM Jonathan Garay <[email protected]> wrote:
Hello Bilstein!

First of all, I am in the U.S. I have been looking all over https://www.bilstein.com/int/en/ website for an email address but none seems to be available, so I have contacted you in Germany.

Anyway, I have an inquiry about the above mentioned Bilstein strut inserts [The 3000GT inserts are in the subject line of my email, not shown here for whatever reason]. They seem to be no longer available! I have placed an order with Summit back in late September with them stating that they would ship out a few days later. After those first few days I am contacted by Summit stating that the inserts are on backorder with a new ship date in early November! That date approaches and I am further notified that the Bilstein inserts are still on back order with a new ship date in December!

I need to know where these inserts are going to be available here in the U.S. so that I may purchase some. All of the online vendors as well as brick and mortar stores in my area seem to not have any of these available.

I have already purchased a set of your 24-185974 units and was looking forward to pairing those with these 34-050224 units. My car is in dire need of suspension rebuild and these are literally the last things I need in order to get the car back on the road.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Jonathan.
 

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So I posted my issue / frustration about this .....
Before you give up on the Mistu inserts, have you searched the web for Bilstein 34-050224? I've found a few places that show that they can be ordered. I would start that search and call those places and get a set. It is the easiest path for you at this point.
 

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Discussion Starter #115
Before you give up on the Mistu inserts, have you searched the web for Bilstein 34-050224? I've found a few places that show that they can be ordered. I would start that search and call those places and get a set. It is the easiest path for you at this point.
Where have you searched already that I haven't? Since my last post here earlier today, I did do a Google Search and hit up each of those listed vendors with either a phone call or email. The phone calls I was told "no, we don't have them" followed up with a "yes, they're on back order". The ones I emailed, well, I'm waiting to hear back from them. Hopefully I'll hear back from them on Monday.

I went on eBay and there are several different eBay vendors that have them for sale. HOWEVER, each of those vendors are somewhere in Europe, mainly Germany. They will ship "across the pond" but shipping varies between $125 to $175 per unit (depending on vendor) before any applicable import tariffs. I'm looking at approximately $275 minimum per unit, or $550 for both, to obtain the 3000GT inserts from a European vendor. At that price I may as well go for the Koni inserts and wait for you to finish your project before moving on with the Konis. Also at that price, I may as well take up Bill's offer on the QA1 units and support small business here in the U.S.

I'm not necessarily giving up on the 3000GT inserts, I'm upset that we don't have anything "easy" for us in terms of performance. I mean, I know we did, but that ship sailed a long time ago and I missed the boarding date and time. Ironically though, that same frustration in regards to the level of difficulty of obtaining certain performance oriented products, for me, makes me more determined to get it done. :)
 

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Where have you searched already that...
I've been looking closely at the various pictures I see of the Konis and, based on what I see, I could make them work in the stock shock housing with stock springs. The bigger problem is that they are even more expensive than the Bilsteins.

It's just more of a time/money issue for a thing like that right now. I'm really getting into the harder parts of my build at the moment so it's definitely something that will have to wait.
 

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Discussion Starter #117
What about using a fork type setup like I said earlier? I know that'd work, save for the spring perch.

I'm curious if my Honda's fork would fit over our LCA for it to work.
 

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What about using a fork type setup like I said earlier? I know that'd work, save for the spring perch.

I'm curious if my Honda's fork would fit over our LCA for it to work.
I think the only challenge with that is that you would not only need to figure out a spring perch, you would also have to figure out all of the shock dimensions and ratings. Installing a spring perch is also a pretty significant problem too since you can't weld directly to the shock body and expect the shock to survive.

If the Konis look like the picture I've added then using them in the stock shock body along with the part number I posted earlier should actually work just fine.

 

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Discussion Starter #119
I think the only challenge with that is that you would not only need to figure out a spring perch, you would also have to figure out all of the shock dimensions and ratings. Installing a spring perch is also a pretty significant problem too since you can't weld directly to the shock body and expect the shock to survive.

If the Konis look like the picture I've added then using them in the stock shock body along with the part number I posted earlier should actually work just fine.

https://c1552172.ssl.cf0.rackcdn.com/678005_x800.webp
I sent an email to Koni. Let's see what they say!
 

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The dimensions for the race parts are online; the non-race stuff for other cars is what I emailed them about.

The sport stuff needs a threaded collar at the top of the "cut off section", unlike the inserts, which bolt thru the bottom of the donor shock with an 8mm bolt.

On the good side, there are double adjustable race shocks. (Rebound and Jounce)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jounce
 
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