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Discussion Starter #121
I'm no mathematician. I have no idea what that math means. As far as I understand it, "Jounce" means it's the moment right as the spring has reached the instant when the spring begins to rebound back to its natural / relaxed state.
 

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Lol.

Jounce it the hit of the bump, the compression part; rebound is the other part, as it re-extends.

Wikipedia is not your friend, sometimes. The above stuff was buried in all the detail, lol.

I just remember being clueless the first time I heard the word, "Jounce".

Sorry. No math required here worse than measuring fractions with a tape measure.

:grin2:
 

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Discussion Starter #123
I think the only challenge with that is that you would not only need to figure out a spring perch, you would also have to figure out all of the shock dimensions and ratings. Installing a spring perch is also a pretty significant problem too since you can't weld directly to the shock body and expect the shock to survive.

If the Konis look like the picture I've added then using them in the stock shock body along with the part number I posted earlier should actually work just fine.

https://c1552172.ssl.cf0.rackcdn.com/678005_x800.webp
Those particular Konis appear to be these ones.

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-380886-front-sport-strut-insert-pair/
 

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I think you are better off looking at the insert+cut down stock shock housing
vs KONIs with a fork on the bottom but if you are insisting on looking at the #2 option, consider this:

"Coilover spring perch"
https://www.ebay.com/itm/FOR-88-00-CIVIC-EG-EK-DC-LOWERING-BLACK-PERCH-SUSPENSION-COILOVER-RED-SPRING/202502693920

You'll need to find one that will match the OD of the shock but is smaller than the fork at the bottom. Of course, this is added pressure on the fork on the bottom as the full force of the spring will be felt by the fork at the bottom and the retaining nut at the top of the shock top mount.

On the plus side, if this works, you could sell off the garbage eBay springs to someone once you find the right spring to use for the tbird application.

-g
 

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Discussion Starter #125
And I got a reply from Koni!

Johnathan,

Thank you for contacting us here at KONI NA. Yes, we did up until 2009 we offer the front inserts and rear shocks for the ‘89-’97 Thunderbird. Unfortunately, due to steadily declining sales volumes the parts were discontinued. About once a year we get request for the Thunderbird shocks, but not nearly enough dealer inquiries to justify the reproduction of the dampers. In order for another batch or the shocks to be made, it would likely require a dealer to commit to purchasing a minimum or 50 total car sets (100 pcs of each front and rear). The Thunderbird insert was smaller in diameter than almost all other strut inserts, due to the fact the front was actually a shock body instead of McPherson strut at 41.9mm. Most McPherson Strut inserts measure at 44mm OD. We have searched with previous request however that is no good off the shelf insert option by way of the KONI Sports as they are very much specific to application. The best option of the shelf option for the Thunderbird is the 8610 1437RACE, with a custom shock tube. The 8610 Race dampers do not use the lower threaded bolt attachment, like the cut-a-strut but rather a threaded gland nut at the top of a threaded shock body.
The bolded area is what caught my attention.

Basically, as @MaddMartigan stated earlier, the bottom of the insert will have to somehow be attached to the rest of the suspension.
 

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And I got a reply from Koni!



The bolded area is what caught my attention.

Basically, as @MaddMartigan stated earlier, the bottom of the insert will have to somehow be attached to the rest of the suspension.
Again, I think I could work this out. I think you could take a stock shock housing and weld on a collar that has the threads on it.

Amazon seems to have a good picture: https://www.amazon.com/Koni-8610-1437RACE-Autocross-Externally-Adjustable/dp/B000RU4554/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1542670404&sr=8-1&keywords=koni+8610+1437RACE
 

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At least you got a reply. I did not.

I'm probably the ******* that emails them once a year, lol.

50 sets at 150 each is 30k; I won't be doing that, lol.
 

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So if one could find a huge die to use on the cut shock tube and use a gland we could use those inserts? They didn’t mention if the top attachment would work with our stock mounts, though I presume the bilstien 3000gt method would apply

Edit, bah I ain’t paying $450 for two shocks
 

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At least you got a reply. I did not.

I'm probably the ******* that emails them once a year, lol.

50 sets at 150 each is 30k; I won't be doing that, lol.
To be fair, dealer cost is probably closer to $100/ea so 200pcs is probably closer to $20K than $30K.

I can't imagine that the market is significant enough with people who want to spend $500-600 for a full set of dampeners that they will still need to DIY to fit on their car. Replicating (or just buying it outright) the SC Performance QA1 setup seems like a far better idea at this point.


I suspect since the Bilsteins are made in Germany, they get sent over in by the containerful every so often. It might be possible to get someone to call the Bilstein importer to find out if a new container is expected.

They only made 150K 3000GTs from the poverty spec front driver to the top of the line VR4 spyder but the % of owners open to modifying the cars is probably still a good deal higher percentage (and probably absolute # wise) than with the tbird despite the nearly 10x production volume.
Stealth 316 - Stealth/3000GT Production Guide

Of course, as a percentage, the # of Evo owners who modified their cars is probably much higher since THAT is probably approaching 100%.

-g

Anyone just call the Bilstein US importer? If anyone would know if that solution is just a few months out or discontinued, they'd know.

+1-800-537-1085
Or hell, tweet at them asking if part #34-050224 is discontinued and if not, when the next shipment is expected.
https://twitter.com/bilsteinus
 

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Can we drop our snobbish ideals and just get Gabriel to make a shocks that meets the old sport spec valving for $75ea? LOL
I have to admit, I never even thought of this.

Anyone have contacts?

I'm still looking for a similar insert. Mine rock.

And there are similar weight cars so their lack of support of our questions is the problem.
 

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Discussion Starter #132
Anyone just call the Bilstein US importer? If anyone would know if that solution is just a few months out or discontinued, they'd know.

+1-800-537-1085
Or hell, tweet at them asking if part #34-050224 is discontinued and if not, when the next shipment is expected.
https://twitter.com/bilsteinus
Surprisingly, I don't do any social media but Facebook. I fail as a Millennial :rofl:. Then again, depending on who you talk to, I am considered a Xennial, :cool:

Anyway, I'll give them a call tomorrow during my lunch break. Hopefully they can shed some light on the matter!

I'm pricing it all out, and between all the options, the 3000GT inserts are still the most affordable option all the way around given all the options.

Can we drop our snobbish ideals and just get Gabriel to make a shocks that meets the old sport spec valving for $75ea? LOL
I'm coming from completely shot suspension! The car as it is now has failing rear wheel bearings, shot front lower ball joints, shot rubber everywhere, rear shocks and front struts leaking. Whenever I risk driving the car around the block of my neighborhood, making the 5 left turns at 15-20MPH I feel like the car has me doing 1.5Gs around each corner. Yea, stock spec sport valving would be nice, but I don't want to settle for just "nice". I want ******* epic, god damnit!! :D
 

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Discussion Starter #133
I got an email back from Bilstein! It's a long lead time.

This guy is saying Fed/Mar time frame, so I'd imagine their vendors won't be getting these until around mid March time frame.

Hello Jonathan,



Thank you for your inquiry. Unfortunately the 34-050224 are currently backordered from our production plant in Germany. Current ETA is Late Feb/Mar. We do apologize in the delay of this product.



Thank you,



Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best regards



Bryant Vuong

Sales Channel
Key Account Specialist

thyssenkrupp Bilstein of America
14102 Stowe Drive | Poway CA 92064 | USA


Separately, it's been mentioned to me that the QA1s are intended for drag racing application? Any truth to that or is that just hearsay?
 

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Surprisingly, I don't do any social media but Facebook. I fail as a Millennial :rofl:. Then again, depending on who you talk to, I am considered a Xennial, :cool:

Anyway, I'll give them a call tomorrow during my lunch break. Hopefully they can shed some light on the matter!

I'm pricing it all out, and between all the options, the 3000GT inserts are still the most affordable option all the way around given all the options.



I'm coming from completely shot suspension! The car as it is now has failing rear wheel bearings, shot front lower ball joints, shot rubber everywhere, rear shocks and front struts leaking. Whenever I risk driving the car around the block of my neighborhood, making the 5 left turns at 15-20MPH I feel like the car has me doing 1.5Gs around each corner. Yea, stock spec sport valving would be nice, but I don't want to settle for just "nice". I want ******* epic, god damnit!! :D
1) I'm not sure how failing wheel bearings, shot rubber, and leaky shocks => 1.5Gs feeling. You need to recalibrate your but dyno. I could imagine minivan handling or sub-Prius handling. The cheapest way to experience 1.5Gs in a vehicle (vs a carnie ride) would be with a competitive racing go kart (aka not the malibu fun center karts) or shifter kart. When you feel the bucket seats dig into your sides AND the vehicle lifts an inner wheel so it starts rotating on 3 wheels -- that's 1.5Gs. Your vehicle rolling over on its side or dragging ass is not the same.

2) You have other vehicles to drive and plenty more issues to (burn money) to fix. I'd wait. Look for a cheap black friday/cyber money deal and backorder them at a cheap price.

3) It seems that the QA1 setup adds almost the ultimate level of configurability (compression & rebound are linked with the super coupe perforamnce pkg vs the fancier ones which allow both settings to be configured independently). You can also vary the springs with cheap circle track shocks to find exactly what suits your needs.
There is such a thing as too stiff for the front/rear for both drag racing and open course racing.
https://www.racingjunk.com/news/2014/05/09/drag-race-suspension-tuning/

You will need to set them up, test the vehicle, and adjust things as necessary for your driving style. I'd say that the QA1 setup is almost certainly overkill for your needs.
-g
 

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Discussion Starter #135
1) I'm not sure how failing wheel bearings, shot rubber, and leaky shocks => 1.5Gs feeling. You need to recalibrate your but dyno. I could imagine minivan handling or sub-Prius handling. The cheapest way to experience 1.5Gs in a vehicle (vs a carnie ride) would be with a competitive racing go kart (aka not the malibu fun center karts) or shifter kart. When you feel the bucket seats dig into your sides AND the vehicle lifts an inner wheel so it starts rotating on 3 wheels -- that's 1.5Gs. Your vehicle rolling over on its side or dragging ass is not the same.

2) You have other vehicles to drive and plenty more issues to (burn money) to fix. I'd wait. Look for a cheap black friday/cyber money deal and backorder them at a cheap price.

3) It seems that the QA1 setup adds almost the ultimate level of configurability (compression & rebound are linked with the super coupe perforamnce pkg vs the fancier ones which allow both settings to be configured independently). You can also vary the springs with cheap circle track shocks to find exactly what suits your needs.
There is such a thing as too stiff for the front/rear for both drag racing and open course racing.
https://www.racingjunk.com/news/2014/05/09/drag-race-suspension-tuning/

You will need to set them up, test the vehicle, and adjust things as necessary for your driving style. I'd say that the QA1 setup is almost certainly overkill for your needs.
-g
1. Sarcasm, not literally 1.5Gs. But yes, it handles like absolute **** right now.

2. The wife's car runs great and aside from the CATs I recently replaced, it's been trouble free. I've dropped a bit of coin on the daily in 2018, and I don't expect to do anything outside of oil changes for the daily in 2019.

3. QA1s are definitely overkill for me, and I'm not wanting to spend that sort of coin. But if the Bilsteins are no longer made available despite Bilstein stating a February / March timeframe, the Koni route won't be that far off on cost in relation to the QA1s. Thus, the QA1s, would be a viable option in terms of cost. I know that what suits my needs is firm suspension. Every time I drive a car with loose suspension (my wife's car) I hate it. My daily has much tighter suspension and I love it for that.
 

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I got an email back from Bilstein! It's a long lead time.

This guy is saying Fed/Mar time frame, so I'd imagine their vendors won't be getting these until around mid March time frame.





Separately, it's been mentioned to me that the QA1s are intended for drag racing application? Any truth to that or is that just hearsay?
Drag racing apps is QA1’s bread and butter, there is a huge variety of applications for them of course but if you look through forums for cars with wide selections of shock options with a wide variety of uses (Mustangs, Camaros, Corvettes, etc.) you’ll notice the same patterns. QA1s aren’t liked by corner carvers, and QA1s are common with drag racers, and the root of it is the core design is designed for strip purposes and to be lightweight(apparently at the cost of durability)

I personally can get past them not being Koni/Bilstien equals, but not the goofy mounting setup SCP uses(vs the old QA1 group buy ones that used the stock mounting) and the numerous sources claiming they wear out fast is enough to steer me clear of them, particularly at that price point
 

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Can we drop our snobbish ideals and just get Gabriel to make a shocks that meets the old sport spec valving for $75ea? LOL
I checked to see how big Gabriel is.
The last revenue number I found was from 2012 when they were sold to MAT Holdings from a private equity firm. At that point, they made about $20M/yr.

MAT HOLDINGS is also privately held and makes about $1.4B in annual revenue.
https://www.autoserviceprofessional.com/article/92819/ride-control-llc-gabriel-brand-purchased-by-mat-holdings

Even if they have the shock body, I suspect the demand for Sport spec valving will be pretty minimal.
Can't hurt to reach out to them to see if you actually get someone (like that response from Bilstein and KONI) OR just a CSR working from a script.
Gabriel | Answer Garage Technical Support - Answers to Your Shock and Strut Questions
---
BTW, these websites claim stock
https://thmotorsports.com/2512675-bilstein-36mm-monotube-strut-insert
https://www.ajusa.com/shop-by-brand/bilstein-b6-performance-suspension-strut-cartridge-34-050224.html


Also, the 3000GT insert is essentially a Bilstein B6 series 36mm body monotube with a threaded tip.
While not ideal, you could also look smaller.

The Bilstein 34-050149 seems to be a front shock with a 30mm body (so it will just drop into the housing). You'll need to confirm the dimensions and I'm not 100% sold that the valving will be correct since it was designed for a vehicle with a much lighter nose (86-91 RX7) BUT if you are impatient, its something to consider. Just find a place with a good/great return policy or use a CC with return protection.
https://thmotorsports.com/2512673-bilstein-30mm-monotube-strut-insert?gclid=Cj0KCQiA_s7fBRDrARIsAGEvF8TD1PR0580jL1NpKVLZTz3j86-vEs4aP5VPdUt8-w1-UZdHCuEo8ksaAlolEALw_wcB
 

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sorry to ask but what was the part number on the QA1's you were looking at .. the rod shop next to me is a distributor and when I do track mods we get them to do different valving so maybe I can find out something on that for us.
 

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Discussion Starter #139
I just spoke with Bill from SCP and I didn't like what he had to say:

1. His Tokico Blues are ridiculously priced and will remain as part of his non-move inventory. The fronts were ranging from $95/ea - $125/ea depending on the vendor when they were available. After speaking with Bill, he stated that will sell his fronts for $565. That basically comes down to $282.50/ea. At that price, the Koni inserts will be cheaper and far superior handling.

2. He said the QA1s require an additional spring as well. I thought the whole point of coil overs was that they integrated a spring and shock / strut that was adjustable. I looked at the SCP QA1 listing and sure enough, he has it listed there.

I'm not all too familiar with coil over setups, but are additional springs necessary for coil over setups? My thinking leads me to believe no, but like I said, I'm not very familiar with coil over setups. Part of what leads me to believe no is the stock photo he has on his website of someone's car with the QA1s installed and no "additional spring" installed with it. I'm not sure if he's pulling my leg to try and buy more stuff from him or he doesn't realize (why wouldn't he?) that the front doesn't require an additional spring if going with coil overs. Then bump stops are needed as well according to the QA1's listing, a $14 additional cost to the already $740 cost of the coil overs. But are those needed as well? How would they be installed if it's all just "plug and play"?

Springs are not included with this kit. Customers can purchase these from SCP or a supplier of their choice. Purchase a pair of 12" long x 2.5" diameter coil over springs to suite their car's weight, intended use and modifications. A 450# rate spring is a good starting point for full weight car and a 400# rate spring is suggested for lighter cars. You can choose from a QA1 spring, Afco, or many other manufacturers.

Bump stops for this front kit are not included and are not absolutely necessary but can be purchased from SCP for $13.99/pair. Also, we highly recommend you purchase our Coil Over Wrench Kit to aid in installation and adjustments in the future.
So I'm basically back to my original options: Wait for the Bilsteins, do the Konis, or just cop out and get some crap Monroes or Gabriels. So the way it looks for me, I'll just wait for the Bilsteins for now. It's not like the car is going anywhere for now anyway, I still have to do the transmission, lol.
 

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You cannot use stock springs with the SCP QA1s because the entire upper shock/spring perch is replaced with a bespoke unit with a pivot, so you’d absolutely be stuck buying springs if you buy his “kit”


@S4gunn, Gabriel, Monroe, KYB, I don’t care who who. I suspect there is probably more *demand* for sport valving than there is for standard LX these days, non enthusiast MN12 owners who buy from them won’t care if a shock is stiffer since it’s probably a just beater car for them anyway. I know it won’t happen, but the gap in the shock market for these is just ludicrous, I don’t know why bill even sells vogtland springs when he doesn’t sell a single god damn shock absorber that matches their spring rate.
 
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