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My Trick Flow Headed NPI motor

32K views 233 replies 23 participants last post by  Mgino96tbird46 
#1 ·
As some of you may know, I will be putting/having a set of brand new 38cc Trick Flow heads installed on my NPI short block sometime when Robert and I have the time and after he recieves the merchandise. My calculated compression ratio comes out to 11.2:1. This will be done on my mostly original 160k mile NPI motor. I'll of course be running 93 on the street and E85 when I want to go fast/ keep things clean. I predict that I will put down at least 250 rwhp, if not more. This ought to make this thing pretty fun. Since I've realized how much money is involved, I reealize I should have saved the money and had this done sooner, especially since I now know what E85 can do. This should be pretty fun, I'm really excited. Maybe this slug will get faster. lol
 
#3 ·
Interesting approach. Yea, It'll be fun for sure. Ian needs to get his act together to even attempt to keep up with you. Otherwise you're going to blow him away.

Has he made any plans to get those heads he bought off of me put on his car yet?
 
#4 ·
I don't think he's said anything yet, at least not to me.

GM, there will be pics. I'm just making the thread because I'm so stoked!
 
#9 ·
Yup, I can only afford to do so much at once. After this, exhaust will come. Just gotta make the money again so I can do it.

Your only thinking 250rwhp with 38cc trick flow heads? I was thinking more than that especially with e85. Either way tho it will be a great upgrade.
I didn't want to be too optimistic. If Rob says close to 300 rwhp, I'll take it. It's going to be a night and day difference.
 
#11 · (Edited by Moderator)
300 with the stock PI cams, stock PI intake, and stock MN12 exhaust manifolds? Maybe at the crankshaft..........I have seen enough TFS combos come together to know they don't add much over a well ported PI head unless its a big bore and/or going over 7000 RPM (there are plenty to say they add zero but I won't go there.......) Make sure you degree in the PI cams as one side will be retarded ~6 and one advanced ~6 with the TFS cam tunnel relocation.

I'm thinking 250-260 rwhp because the intake and exhaust will hold you back somewhat. Time to crunch some numbers...

This is my thinking, fixing the middle of the cork still doesn't fix the ends of the cork.
 
#15 ·
Can't afford to...unless you want to pay me. lol
 
#16 ·
Honestly for $2K of TFS heads I would instead spend $1K on a set of PI heads and $1K on a set of Kooks. The Kooks are where its at to get some NA love on this chassis IMHO. It will be interesting to see what it does, I can't think of anyone that has done TFS heads with stock PI cams before much less stock exhaust manifolds.
 
#18 ·
You got that right Nick. It was mentioned earlier that TF heads without headers, cams, forced induction, etc. to take advantage of the addl. flow is a waste of money and resources.

Now, if you plan to add all of that later of course it's just a first step in the process. However, to put the heads on and then go back and add the other parts later is a waste of time and energy IMHO.

You might as well do all of those things at once and be done with it instead of adding parts piece meal.
 
#17 ·
That can come later. Money has already left my hands. I'll be happy with 300 crank hp. It'll get me into the 13's.
 
#19 ·
That's just about what I'm making now - with ported heads, less than half a point of compression less than your setup, cams two steps above PI cams and ported exhaust manifolds. If you can pull it off with PI cams and stock exhaust manifolds, that'd be awesome - but I think past a certain point the heads aren't the restriction and the exhaust manifolds are. You can't take advantage of great flow without a good cam, and you can't take advantage of a great cam without great flow. It's a vicious cycle. Don't get me wrong - I'm anxious to see what the combo does.

The more time goes by the more I wish I would have done headers of some sort... :bangwall:
 
#21 ·
I'm not looking for "the maximum benefit" right now, just an overall improvement. Either way, these heads will run circles around stock NPI heads. Plus, every new upgrade I eventually make will see good gains.

Hell, I'll just be happy to not burn a quart of oil every 650 miles. I'll take the extra efficiency offered by the higher compression ratio too.
 
#25 ·
What would you guys expect from a pi intake and cams on an NPI engine, with a set of Preston's ported stock manifolds, and a 2.25" exhaust w/x-pipe and cheap, high flow mufflers? :)

Just curious; if I can get the cams in, this will be my DD setup...

Is Preston still doing manifolds and stuff on the side?



Nice build, Mike! Rob will have you Rockin' in no time. :)
 
#26 ·
210-230 rwhp.

Not to be off topic but I only visit one other forum and I have no new messages there?

OP and Rob - do it up and dyno and track it for MPH, that will tell us what they are worth over PI swap combos. Will be interesting to see the results but I am not thinking its going to be that big of a difference. If you dial in the PI cams at 110 intake centerline I "think" that would help it more over the stock 114 and 115.

On another note, I might be the first to purposely install a set of NPI heads in a 2000 Mustang. I blew the motor in my vert and being a cheap bastard took all the ready to go dusty parts off the shelf. Ported NPI heads that were cosmetically too ugly to sell, cut down used SVO intake valves, ugly set of Comp 262AH, and a stock Mark bottom end. If I hit 280RWHP on the stingy dynos around here I will jump for joy.
that reminds me, did you solve all the issues that you were seeing with the SVO heads? I remember you were telling me about the valve stem height or something to that effect.

I had replied to a PM I had initially sent you titled "sharkskin, eh?". I'll resend just in case.
 
#27 ·
Cure for the SVO is simply a set of Manley intake valves. They fit near perfect, much better than the stock ones. The stock SVO takeout intake valves are a good core to cut down to 1.79" to max out the stock NPI intake seat diameter. About 1hr on the lathe and they were all happy, the tip length after the face being cut down was perfect. The NPI heads for my max E85 attempt are going to use Manley 1.84" SVO intake valves with a welded chamber to make it 38cc, I don't think that has ever been done before. We are decking them 060 as well as that allows moving the mismatch at the bottom with the PI intake upwards and raise the roof the same amount in a place that really likes that.
 
#52 ·
More than most any intake manifold will keep up too. Same problem the TFS heads have on these motors. Roots style blowers can work the extra flow easier but any intake manifold that allows more than ~210CFM is either 8K territory or its sticking out of the hood. If you are willing to deck the SVO a bunch you can raise the roof the same amount, same trick I am doing to my NPI. No point in making the sides wider than stock as no intake will match unless you are building a custom sheet metal version. You see all these head flow charts with no intakes mounted, but last time I checked a fuel injector doesn't flow air and on the PI head it takes up a chunk of space in the upper section. Carbed Edelbrock seems to allow the most flow, but a carbed modular is pretty much race only.
 
#29 ·
As said before my buddy's 95 bird 130k here are the specs
Pi heads and pi cams and pi intake, on the stock npi bottom end, used a old Jerry chip with 80 mm maf with under drive pulleys, with stock manifolds and all 3 cats in place with dunno max cat back exhaust car made 242 rwhp sae numbers on a Dyno jet which I found out later reads low anyways it was over 300 rwtq and the car went 13.7 at 101 mph on a mark 8 tc so with a real converter it would have hauled,

Preston still does manifolds
 
#30 ·
At least with the Trick Flows, they don't need to be ported to be on the level of ported PI cylinder heads. For right now, this will be a good starting point. The heads are brand new and never used. They can bolt right on and I won't have to take them to someone to be freshened up/ machined. The intake valve angle in relation to the piston is also better, I can run a bigger cam and not have to worry about cutting into the pistons any.
 
#31 ·
With PI cams, stock exhaust manifolds and PI intake on the TFS I'd bet 265 Max, probably less!!!!

My Stock PI headed & PI cammed, stock NPI shortblock only ever dynoed 254+ with the Bullitt Intake and stock exhaust manifolds. That was on 93 Octane pump gas as well. That was in 2004 on a Mustang dyno at that. Of course that engine gave up the ghost last year when the fuel pump shut off and it went lean on the spray.

The TFS are only going to be as good as the flow in and out regardless of what they themselves are CAPABLE of flowing. You have restrictions at both ends as well as a restriction with the cams on those heads.

But I too would be interested to see the dyno numbers as well as the track numbers.

It would be interesting to see the numbers on pump gas and on an E85 tune too!
 
#32 ·
With PI cams, stock exhaust manifolds and PI intake on the TFS I'd bet 265 Max, probably less!!!!

My Stock PI headed & PI cammed, stock NPI short block only ever dynoed 254+ with the Bullitt Intake and stock exhaust manifolds. That was on 93 Octane pump gas as well. That was in 2004 on a Mustang dyno at that. Of course that engine gave up the ghost last year when the fuel pump shut off and it went lean on the spray.

The TFS are only going to be as good as the flow in and out regardless of what they themselves are CAPABLE of flowing. You have restrictions at both ends as well as a restriction with the cams on those heads.

But I too would be interested to see the dyno numbers as well as the track numbers.

It would be interesting to see the numbers on pump gas and on an E85 tune too!
Yea, that's the "middle of the cork" scenario that Nick spoke of earlier in this thread. Hey, at least he's making the effort. Albeit a bit out of order, at least he's trying ...

I think it's funny to see so many ... "this set up made that on the dyno and that setup made this on the dyno ..." quotes in this thread. It happens every time someone throws something together.

It'll make what it makes when it's done and no other set up will really compare; as every set up is unique.

Speaking of dyno numbers, I'm looking forward to getting mine to the dyno this winter when Rob finishes the latest round of upgrades that I've been waiting on. I guarantee it'll make it's own unique set of numbers. :tongue: ;)
 
#34 ·
I'm telling u guys I have done this setup before 03 gt with trickflow heads and stage 2 cams stock pi intake and stock exhaust the car is a convertible with 255 tires up front and full weight 37xx on scales car went 12.17 @ 111.5 mph no Dyno numbers but the car was just as fast as when it had and svo supercharger, the 1-2 shift was around 7000 rpm, the car had 4.10 gears not to mention it had a forged rods and pistons compression was about 9.1, the pistons had a huge dish but they were cheap that's why he used them other wise we would have bumped the compression
 
#35 · (Edited)
Stick or auto trans? Besides, no one is doubting the heads. Its just Dugan that always gets his knickers in a twist whenever someone claims high HP numbers with PI cams because his is the greatest PI-cammed engine ever, lol. Or should I say, was. Lol

After doing some number crunching, I am going to change my guess and say 280rwhp ± 60rwhp. :D

I have a feeling that eventually I'll be doing TFS heads, just for the sheer greed of it all. Eventually as in sometime after my car is running, lol.
 
#36 · (Edited)
It was a stick. Even so, that translates out to a 13.0-13.5 run for me. Maybe even faster since I have skinnier tires up front, drag radials, and 11.2:1 compression.
 
#37 ·
Michael, Do you think you will go ahead and install the heads with PI cams as soon as you get them or wait for some bigger cams? That way your a little closer to what the vert mustang had? :zdunno: That's prob what I would do. Either way can't wait to see the numbers! Wonder what cams would be best for your set up...
 
#39 · (Edited)
We're going to throw it in with PI cams. Can't do cams right now, nor am I going to wait for them. If I'm gonna blow $2200, I want it on my car as soon as possible.

Unless he is gonna shift past 6500, bigger cams won't be much of a benefit. The peak power RPM will likely shift to an even higher RPM than with just the heads, yet without being any higher in HP (the HP will be capped off by the limited flow of the PI intake). The midrange torque loss would likely not be made up from the extra HP @ redline, and the total average power output would be down. I'm calculating peak HP RPM with just the TFS heads will be ~5300, and with stage IIish cams with about 225° of duration it should shift to ~5900 or so.
5300 isn't all that bad. I shift at 5500-5700 as it is.
 
#38 ·
Unless he is gonna shift past 6500, bigger cams won't be much of a benefit. The peak power RPM will likely shift to an even higher RPM than with just the heads, yet without being any higher in HP (the HP will be capped off by the limited flow of the PI intake). The midrange torque loss would likely not be made up from the extra HP @ redline, and the total average power output would be down. I'm calculating peak HP RPM with just the TFS heads will be ~5300, and with stage IIish cams with about 225° of duration it should shift to ~5900 or so.
 
#41 ·
I'll have them take it out to 6200 rpm.
 
#42 ·
not what I meant by "wind it out"...I was thinking more, lol Remember, your trans has a wide 1st-2nd ratio. Where ever your HP peak RPM ends up at, you need to go minimum 1000 RPM past it to get a good look at the curve. I was thinking 6500 minimum if your trans can handle it.
 
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