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Need help with the last stage (wiring) of my 5 speed swap

5K views 46 replies 7 participants last post by  Turboedmav 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi there folks... :smile2:

I finally finished bolting the M5R2 to the 4.6 on my 94 TBird... :xpcool:

Yes (!!!) ... I knew all along that it wouldn't be as easy as the other manual options out there, but I love challenges and it can definitely be done if you are bent on the idea like I was... (and if you don't mind cutting a non-structural corner off of the block :surprise: and making some other mods to make it work mechanically speaking)

I have read Papa John's article (and almost every other thread I've found on the topic of wiring a 5 speed conversion) but now I understand that his setup defeats the safety feature of the neutral switch -by jumping the terminals- and this way the car can be accidentally started in gear (!!).

I would like to retain the safety feature of the neutral switch, but I'm confused as to how to go about it.

The M5R2 has a two-wire neutral switch on it, and I could simply run the two wires from the auto car harness (the ones jumped on Papa John's article) to the switch, but I wonder if that will be enough to enable the safety feature or there's something else to do regarding the clutch safety switch ON THE PEDAL.

Although the 94 was a factory auto car, it has the clutch switch connector under the dash by the pedals (??) but it's currently plugged with a gray plastic plug that I will call a "jumper block". I don't know if it actually "jumps" the terminals or if it's just a plastic plug to prevent unnecessary exposure of the terminals.

Has anybody here connected BOTH a neutral switch on their 5-speeds to a 94 & up harness AND ALSO connected the clutch switch on the pedal?

I have no "Cruise Control" features or circuits to worry about, and I will soon get a tune mailed for the SCT X3, to "delete" the auto tranny from the ECU.

Please comment if you have something to share that might help me finish my conversion as cleanly as possible.

Also, if you want to mate the M5R2 to a 4.6 and have any questions, I can help too :smile2:

Thanks is advance for your help.
 
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#2 ·
I'd like to see this just out of pure curiosity, there is a factory 4.6 block with the SBF pattern and a M5R2 case with the normal modular pattern I knew to be possible, I never knew the specifics of the mismatch so I'd definitely like to see.

Anyway, the neutral safety switch and clutch pedal switch both use the same starter circuit, (white/pink and/or red/light blue). If the car began life as a 4.6 car there is no jumper under the dash and it isn't prewired for it, automatic SCs have it, but not LXs. You'd have to wire it in if you really want it, which given the tightness means the dash has to come out to open up the harness and cut/tap the starter wire - or run new wire externally bypassing it(not the clean execution I prefer though). The grey plug you mention is likely just the ground junction.


The neurtal safety switch is the better one to have anyway, T45s, TR3650s and such don't have this switch(which is why papa john's article simply jumps it), and both features serve identical purposes so it doesn't matter for safety just having the one. Personally I don't like the clutch switch, it's inconvenient and needlessly loads the main thrust bearing without sufficient oil pressure at startup.
 
#9 · (Edited)
I guess I'll be undoing the jumped cables on the auto harness and running them to the switch on the 5 speed then... i will forget about the clutch pedal switch.

The connector for the clutch switch is in fact there, probably in the American car it isn't, but this a Mexican one and it does have it there, it's plugged.

I attached some pictures of the M5R2 splashguard on the 4R70W bellhousing, as you can see, there are 5 holes that can be readily used: 2 on top, 2 on driver's side and 1 on passenger side... the 2 on the bottom need custom brackets and that makes a total of 7 bolts.

Thanks for the input.
 

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#3 ·
Isn't that tranny only rated about 250ft-lbs of torque?

I hear of people with 4.2l v6 engines breaking them...
 
#5 ·
OK.

I know several idiots with f150s that broke them in the woods; no telling how.
 
#7 · (Edited)
M5R2's are rated well above the rated torque put out by the SC.

Synchro wear is the real headache with them (if you're that bad shifting and not using the right oil and additives)

There are enough coincidences in the bellhousing patterns to make it work.

The two holes on top are a match, as are two on the starter side and one more on the driver's side.

The dowel pins on 5.0 and 3.8 are solid, whereas the ones on the 4.6 are hollow and, thus, provide two extra bolt locations.

The two bolts on the bottom need custom angle iron brackets made that bolt onto the block using the existing holes and bolts for the oil pan... not my idea, it's @Ty Whutaker ... He wrote about putting a 4.6 into a SC body, but since he didn't upload any pictures, people doubted he'd done it. He was kind enough to mail me some pictures of his brackets for the lower bolts and confirm the swap was doable, as I suspected from some other earlier research I had already done.

The holes on the bellhousing for the dowel pins must be enlarged to 5/8 and they can be used with no problem if the new holes are drilled at the correct angle and well centered, 1mm off and the tranny might not slide in at all.

If I had to do it again, I'd save myself a lot of time and use a bolt-on option, I just wanted to prove myself it can be done, cause, like I said, I like challenges.

I have some pictures.
 
#8 ·
Most off road guys here drive mustangs on the street, so... :)

I've heard several people complain; but they're driving in really rough conditions.
 
#11 ·
Nice work!

That's some really nice fab work, looks great. :)

Where did you find a mex car?
 
#12 ·
Impressive work you put into that! Compared to the Mustang swaps it looks quite more involved. I have read that the SC transmissions can hold some serious torque.

IMO the clutch pedal safety switch is unnecessary. At first I was bent about getting it set up when I did my swap. After just doing the simple bypass I am not really worried about it anymore. Parking brake works fine so no need to keep it in gear when parked anyway.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Yeah, thanks... It's been a whole mess since I started, especially since I only work on the car on Sundays... But I'm almost through now... :smile2:

I have read that about the SC transmissions as well... and I already had two of them, that's why I had to see for myself that this couldn't be done.

I hope the tune will leave the ECU and engine working as they did before the swap, car was smoooooth and shifts were always on point. I had been planning to do the swap in a couple years, but the tranny oil cooler in the radiator died and it started exchanging oil for coolant and made a mess in the auto tranny, I drained about a bucketful of "strawberry shake" from the auto... sad to see it go this way, it had been well mannered and trusty... RIP 4R70W... :frown2:
 
#17 ·
There are good options there for aging cars; manual windows and seats were two that came to mind.

And manual transmissions, which are only in SC's here.

IDK for sure about the windows, I've only heard that.

I've rebuilt all my windows, and do a yearly lubing to try to prevent future problems, and power seat motors freeze as well. :(

I'd be happy to find a manual pedal set. :)



Running cars would probably be the more taken care of ones, but I understand about low maintenance.

But, I know fairly rich people here that buy a car drive it for three years and sell it with original fluids. :rolleyes:
 
#18 · (Edited)
I did some research on these cars a few years ago after chatting with another member from Mexico with a 3.8 supercharged 1994 Cougar XR7, which blew my mind! In the US the supercharged 3.8 was dropped in favor of the 5.0 in 1991, and in 1993 the XR7 was downgraded and applied to all Cougar models, regardless of engine. Also special for the Mexican XR7 is the use of the extremely rare 1992-only 16x7” turbine wheels on the 1994.

Because there was no Mercury brand in Mexico, Cougars were under the Ford umbrella, with Cougars positioned in the lineup as luxury models(mostly with typical equipment we have in the US), while Thunderbirds were low optioned, with some very seldom seen parts, like manual drivers seat, no cruise control, and flat front seats with unique upholstery patterns. In the US the 5-speed was only available in the Tbird SC and 1989-1990 XR7, and Thunderbird SC was top of the line. In Mexico, because the Cougar XR7 was placed as a luxury model, all supercharged Cougars were automatics, and Thunderbird SC were a stripper performance model - no automatic ride control, no cruise control, regular front seats(though they did have the fold down rear), no VMM, no ABS brakes, no fog lamps, etc.

I’ve seen some other differences perusing Mexican classifieds sites too:

•regular 89-93s all seemed to have the digital dash, which were optional in the US

•regular Tbirds and Cougars shared taillight lenses with the SC and XR7s

•I think the fold down rear seat may have been optional in all models

•Base 3.8s used a M5R2 as standard equipment.

•Base models with the 5-speed used the handbrake and corresponding console top with a unique “delete plate” for where the ride control/fog light switches would go on US SCs



Grog is incorrect about manual windows, no MN12 was designed for them. With the exception of upholstery patterns, Mexican MN12s used no parts that weren’t used in the US, but because they were local assembly CKD cars they were put together in their own unique combinations.

They were built at the plant that assembles (or at least used to) Fiestas.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I did some research on these cars a few years ago after chatting with another member from Mexico with a 3.8 supercharged 1994 Cougar XR7, which blew my mind! In the US the supercharged 3.8 was dropped in favor of the 5.0 in one XR7 in 1991, and in 1993 the XR7 was downgraded and applied to all Cougar models, regardless of engine. Also special for the Mexican XR7 is the use of the extremely rare 1992-only 16x7” turbine wheels on the 1994.
Wow, you know your stuff well, sir!!:laugh:

Because there was no Mercury brand in Mexico, Cougars were under the Ford umbrella, with Cougars positioned in the lineup as luxury models(mostly with typical equipment we have in the US), while Thunderbirds were low optioned, with some very seldom seen parts, like manual drivers seat, no cruise control, and flat front seats with unique upholstery patterns.
Yes, My 94 has no cruise control at all, that's why I didn't understand all the fuss about "disabling" the Cruise control circuit by installing the clutch switch (which, as I said before, I'm not installing anymore).

In the US the 5-speed was only available in the Tbird SC and 1989-1990 XR7, and Thunderbird SC was top of the line. In Mexico, because the Cougar XR7 was placed as a luxury model, all supercharged Cougars were automatics, and Thunderbird SC were a stripper performance model - no automatic ride control, no cruise control, regular front seats(though they did have the fold down rear), no VMM, no ABS brakes, no fog lamps, etc.
True.
 
#19 ·
Grog6:

Manual windows were never an option in the Mexican cars, they've always been electric.

Seats, there are both, power and regular.

I am subscribed to at least three groups on FB for these cars and conversion parts come up way more often than in the US, and the parts are also way cheaper than US parts, for example, I'd say you can get the clutch pedal for something around 60-75 US (as opposed to the 200+ I've seen posted on eBay!!)

The problem is, SHIPPPING from Mexico into the US is not as cheap as it is from the US to Mexico, right now I'm expecting the handheld tuner (SCT X3) shipped from Laredo and I only paid 11 US to my door... If I wanted to ship it back to Laredo, it would be around 60 US for sure.

So, it's a case by case scenario to find out if it will be worth buying used parts from here... I'll stay on the look out for a set of pedals and let you know if I hear of something.
 
#23 ·
The big issue I ran into with when I made my first tune for it was it was defaulting to the max spark at low load table under all operating conditions, which is locked at 15° btdc. It was popping and backfiring bad from that, despite all the auto trans functions shut off. It sounds like that’s what you were experiencing.

I had a pretty bad bad bucking issue too that I never figured out the root of before I pulled that engine. When I created the tune for my 32v swap I loaded all the values for a manual trans 96-98 GT to start with and that completely cured it.
 
#25 · (Edited)
When I created the tune for my 32v swap I loaded all the values for a manual trans 96-98 GT to start with and that completely cured it.

I'm curious about this...

Do you know if we have to pay SCT a fee or a license to create our own tunes for the SCT and upload them? I mean, are SCT tuner owners always "tied" to SCT authorized tuners? ... ... or we can go "solo" once we teach ourselves enough about tuning to start fiddling with fuel and spark tables, and other stuff?
 
#26 ·
If you want to write your own tunes, you have to buy the "PRP" package for about $400, and there's a steep learning curve.

Most people just order a "Mail order tune" that you would load with the xcal3.

I'd call Don Lasota, of Lasota Racing in Florida; he's tuned a bunch of these.

Look this over:

SCT LaSota Racing Ford Mail Order Custom Tunes

I'm tuning my cars, but you really need a wideband O2 sensor to make sure you're not going to kill anything; when you see it go lean, you know to let off. :)
 
#28 ·
If you want to write your own tunes, you have to buy the "PRP" package for about $400, and there's a steep learning curve.

Most people just order a "Mail order tune" that you would load with the xcal3.

I'd call Don Lasota, of Lasota Racing in Florida; he's tuned a bunch of these.

Look this over:

SCT LaSota Racing Ford Mail Order Custom Tunes

I'm tuning my cars, but you really need a wideband O2 sensor to make sure you're not going to kill anything; when you see it go lean, you know to let off. <img src="http://forums.tccoa.com/images/smilies/vb2_smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" class="inlineimg" />
Thanks, I called him just before buying the tuner on eBay but what discouraged me just a little was that when talking about my swap, he immediately said he wouldn't be able to guarantee a CEL free car.

It bothers me a bit to have spent 200 on the tuner and 100 more on the tune to "maybe" have the CEL on and not being able to have the tuner tweak his tune to make it go away... I know it's probably something beyond his control, so it can't be personal, but, still ... it's kind of a bummer...
 
#27 ·
As grog6 said you would need the prp software to do that. The Xcal III is merely an interface between your computer or laptop with the tune file and your car’s PCM. For these purposes you’re probably just better off with a mail order tune, especially from a cost standpoint.


The EPA thing is only said to take away EGR and rear oxygen sensor elimination, but everything else should remain in tact. As far as it effecting tuners the only thing that can disappear would be those optional parameters set by the programmer.
 
#31 ·
I'll go with the mail order tune for now... but I will continue to look for more freedom. I definitely want to be able to tweak the parameters myself, I don't know how much I have to read, but as I said in the thread starter, challenge is the name of this game (for me) and I really like reading technical books and manuals. I'll be planting an HE300VG into this car and tuning and tweaking is definitely the only way to go, so I must learn how to do it myself within a year or a little more... ?

Glad the EPA didn't affect us that much with their resolution.

What's your opinion on the Tweecer vs other software-hardware combos like the MegaSquirt? Any experience with them you care sharing?
 
#29 ·
Did he say why the cel would be on? If it's rear o2 sensors, you can add cats...
 
#32 ·
I understand, that’s why I bought PRP myself. I can’t speak for either one but I don’t particularly like the whole bare bones standalone build-a-PCM aspect of options like megasquirt. It’s hard to beat the OEM hardware for overall driveability so I like to stick to options that utilize it.

Quarterhorse would be my pick other than SCT. You need a chip on the PCM’s J3 port for that, rather than flash through the OBD II port via tuner, but it allows on the fly changes from your laptop with the engine running. I would have bought that instead of PRP had it been available at the time.
 
#33 ·
Turboedmav,you sad earlier
The holes on the bellhousing for the dowel pins must be enlarged to 5/8 and they can be used with no problem if the new holes are drilled at the correct angle and well centered, 1mm off and the tranny might not slide in at all

I have a little hard time to understand the part with the angle,do you got some more explanatory information on the angle part ???

Thx hoschy
 
#34 · (Edited)
Yes, I meant that the drill bit must cut into the bellhousing existing holes at an almost perfect 90º angle (both, horizontally and vertically) if your angles are off, you might have trouble mating the tranny to the block as the tolerance is not (must not be) very forgiving, because the dowel pins' only job is to center the whole thing so that the clutch disc and input shaft will not be "fighting" each other while the disc is pressed and the whole clutch assembly is rotating. If the tranny is not well centered, the disc will be putting unwanted sideways loads on the input shaft, probably causing a lot of vibration and/or earlier wear and failure.

What I did to assure the perpendicular angles, when widening the holes, was making a "guide" using a 2x2' piece of hard wood that I had previously drilled to 5/8 on the drill press (to make sure it was at a 90º angle in both axis) and then I clamped it on the bellhousing mating face. Go slowly, the bit will catch on the aluminium real fast if you push it too much, very slight pressure will do a better job.

Before clamping this wooden "guide" onto the bellhousing, I secured the auto tranny separator plate as a template to get both holes centered and at the exact separation.

It might sound like too much work, but it's not that hard and the 5speed slid into position just like a hot knife on butter.
 
#40 ·
Alcohol is my constant companion, until recently. :(

One of my friends from the 80's had a N2o line for the driver in his racecar; and got busted for it. :D

It was always fun when He showed up to parties, lol.

Then, about 1986 or so, he sold it all for Cocaine.
 
#41 · (Edited)
Well... yesterday I was finally able to hook up the tranny harness, install the master cylinder and reservoir, connect the hydraulic line, plug and reconnect everything under the dash and find out if my splicin', cuttin' and adaptin' had a happy ending.

I located the "back-up" and "neutral" wires on the auto harness and connected them to the corresponding switches on the 5 speed.

I left the range sensor connected to the loom, but out of all the wires coming out of the connector, only two ended up staying actually connected directly to the ECU, since four of them were cut and routed to the switches.

The wires left on the range sensor are (I assume) signal back to the ECU about lever position (Back-up and neutral are not "signal", just on/off switched positions, I'm guessing as using the switches, instead, did work)

No clutch switch installed yet, I might also install it after all, you can see the plug and connector on the pictures, the plug jumps two pairs of terminals, indeed.

The starter did turn!! :smile2:

... ... :frown2: but stupid me, overlooked one simple thing: The gears in the 4.6 and 3.8 starters are not the same diameter. Both do work with 164 tooth flywheels (or flexplates) but the 4.6 one is considerably larger than the 3.8 (about 7mm difference!!) ... So the gear I used in my "frankenstein" starter (being bigger than the one originally used with this starter faceplate) hits the flywheel "face" rather than going all the way out to engage the teeth... no biggie, I'll try and switch the gears tonight (hopefully they will switch) ... if not, I'l have to think of a way to separate the starter from the flywheel about 3.5mm.

Regarding the shifter, as you can see on the picture (that's first gear) I'll have to fix that. As you know, the dashboard in 94-97 cars is a couple inches more to the rear compared to earlier years. That was also overlooked in my calculations :crying:) ... I will have to use a 2.5' long x .5' thick steel plate to move the shifter back. :|

Being stubborn has its downside, I guess...:frown2:

Still, I'm enjoying this process a lot.
 

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#42 ·
Actually the shifter placement is likely the fault of the 4.6 engine placement/dimensions vs. the V6. The M5R2 didn’t dimensionally change for 1994, nor did the trans tunnel opening and boot plate, so the 4.6 must sit further forward., moving the trans ahead with it.

Really interesting about the factory clutch switch being there. That would have made things easier for me on mine :tongue:
 
#43 · (Edited)
Actually the shifter placement is likely the fault of the 4.6 engine placement/dimensions vs. the V6. The M5R2 didn’t dimensionally change for 1994, nor did the trans tunnel opening and boot plate, so the 4.6 must sit further forward., moving the trans ahead with it.

Really interesting about the factory clutch switch being there. That would have made things easier for me on mine <img src="http://forums.tccoa.com/images/smilies/vb2_tongue.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Tongue" class="inlineimg" />
Now that you mention it, I now recall @Ty Whutaker saying something on his thread about the 4.6 sitting "an inch or two" forward (compared to the 3.8 that was on the car before his swap) ... And, yes... I had to turn the hole (on tranny crossmember for the rubber mount) into a slot… long enough to accomodate the new forward position of the tranny, you're right.
 
#44 ·
Bought a new starter gear today, the smallest I could find in parts stores.

Box says it's for a Ford Ranger.

There was a 7mm difference between the gear I needed to use with my "Frankenstein" starter (25mm) and the one I was actually using (32mm), the one I got is 28mm and 10 teeth.

I'm crossing my fingers now hoping clearance issues are over and the teeth will engage this time... it will actually be a 1.5mm problem if they dont!!... in that case, I'll have no choice but to move the starter outwards somehow a meager 1.5mm :|
 

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#45 ·
As long as they are the same pitch, it should be all good; if not, it will grind everything to match in short order. :)
 
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