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Discussion Starter #1
Finally decided to make my own thread so I can stop taking over other ones. A quick re cap of what happened across many threads and in the chat box:
I built an engine from an 03 Panther chassis ( I forget which one), had to get a new oil pan because I installed an HO oil pump, while doing that I modified some headers to fit the car, had issues with a cheap FTI TC I bought, and recently ran into an issue with my SCT chip causing the car to dump fuel into the cylinders. I went into detail here: http://forums.tccoa.com/7-engine-4-6l-5-4l/175825-running-rich-both-banks.html

I recently started data logging to see what is happening with the car.
The chip is already in the mail to be looked over. In the meant time, I have been checking out what the cars stock EEC is doing. So far, this is what I have found:
Fuel trim bank 1 short term: 1.56%
Fuel trim bank 2 short term: 42.19%

Upon first start up, both were zero'd out until I gave a blip of the throttle, then they picked sides, like how you see in my 'last recorded reading'. When I blipped the throttle again, they swapped over. I dont know whats happening. At cruise (part throttle) they tend to stick to the same path but its not a very smooth line.

Fuel trim bank 1 long term: 7.81%
Fuel trim bank 2 long term: 11.72%

Im assuming this is what counts, but Id like to get the short term readings as close as these numbers are

Air Fuel Ratio (measured): 14.4
o2 volts bank 1: 0.75v
o2 volts bank 2: 0.085v
Volumetric Efficiency (Calculated): 19%

These were all taken at idle, at the time of writing this there are still people in my area that will call the cops on me if I take it on the street just because of how loud it is.

If anyone knows more about this stuff and could tell me whats going on, thatd be awesome.

I wont just use this as a data logging thread, just new stuff I am up to with the car will go here.

Probably a shitty first post but Im hoping I can only get better from this :smile2:
 

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At any given time, the total fuel trim is going to be the sum of the short term plus the long term. So if the long term is 11%, and the short term is 42%, that means it is adding 51% more fuel than it is expecting, which means something is wrong, especially if it is doing so at idle! My first thought would be a vacuum leak that is only affecting the one bank, like and intake gasket leak, but the other thing to consider is if you have no exhaust on this thing, then the O2 sensors are going to be picking up oxygen from the outside air, especially at idle, and that is going to throw all the readings way off. I would start by getting an exhaust on it, and then see what the fuel trims do before you go nuts chasing what may be a non-existant problem.
 

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...but the other thing to consider is if you have no exhaust on this thing, then the O2 sensors are going to be picking up oxygen from the outside air, especially at idle, and that is going to throw all the readings way off. I would start by getting an exhaust on it, and then see what the fuel trims do before you go nuts chasing what may be a non-existant problem.
Nice diagnosis!

You need at least ~4ft past the sensor, iirc.

They call the backflow "exhaust reversion"; if it's further in than ~12", it should get better at higher throttle settings. (more outflow)
 

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Discussion Starter #4
At any given time, the total fuel trim is going to be the sum of the short term plus the long term. So if the long term is 11%, and the short term is 42%, that means it is adding 51% more fuel than it is expecting, which means something is wrong, especially if it is doing so at idle! My first thought would be a vacuum leak that is only affecting the one bank, like and intake gasket leak, but the other thing to consider is if you have no exhaust on this thing, then the O2 sensors are going to be picking up oxygen from the outside air, especially at idle, and that is going to throw all the readings way off. I would start by getting an exhaust on it, and then see what the fuel trims do before you go nuts chasing what may be a non-existant problem.
You are probably right with the exhaust. Itll stick with one bank, but if I rev the engine itll then switch which bank gets more fuel. I have about 15 inches of pipe off the back of the headers, Im guessing that wont do much?

I checked the cylinders today after running it and there was no excess gas in either one of them, if that means anything idk.
 

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From what I read earlier, the lower the flow thru the engine, the less accurate it is.

I would probably be fine, lol.

I'd bring the exhaust out in front of the rear wheels, that looks pretty good.

And if you angle the tip up slightly, you will scare the cars beside you to Death, by nailing it from a stoplight.

>:)
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
From what I read earlier, the lower the flow thru the engine, the less accurate it is.

I would probably be fine, lol.

I'd bring the exhaust out in front of the rear wheels, that looks pretty good.

And if you angle the tip up slightly, you will scare the cars beside you to Death, by nailing it from a stoplight.

>:)
That the idea lol.

I just thought about this, but could it be getting bad readings since the car is running long tubes untuned?
 

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...
I just thought about this, but could it be getting bad readings since the car is running long tubes untuned?
No, not really.

...They call the backflow "exhaust reversion"...
It sucks air in from the end of the pipe between exhaust pulses, and the o2 sensor averages them together.

Too much o2 means dump fuel, so that's exactly what you're seeing.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Too much o2 means dump fuel, so that's exactly what you're seeing.
Its at least not as bad as it was before. Im not finding pools in the cylinders like I was. Either way, I have my muffler in the mail and Ill be going to a shop to have everything made up when I do get it. Ill log it on the way back from the installation to see if it fixes the trim issues.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Now that I have exhaust on my car and can hear the noises in the engine bay, I think I found the cause to all my problems to be an intake gasket. Makes me feel like a dumb ass lol. MadMikeyL called it earlier, so props to him.

On the way home from the shop My check engine light came on, flashing. Checked out the codes and would you believe I had a cylinder 5, 6, and 7 misfire with a Bank 2 lean code to boot. I ran the car with the hood popped and heard a periodic "woosh" sound (the closest thing I can think to it is when you push air out from from between your palms) coming from the intake manifold, more towards bank 2. This makes me think its a portion of the gasket towards the inside of the engine.

One thing the engine has had since I got it running was an absolutely horrible throttle response, a shaky idle, and no power under 2500 rpm. Recently, the car has a hard time starting once its brought up to temperature. I was thinking it might be a head gasket, but the car isnt burning coolant or oil. I also changed the oil yesterday and there was no coolant in it (no metal either which is a bonus for me).

Im thinking I either didint use the correct torque sequence or the right torque measurement, or maybe cheap gaskets (they came in a felpro kit).

Im planning on replacing the gaskets today or tomorrow depending on when the Ford dealer calls me back saying they have them. If anyone could chime in on what they think it is, agree that the IM gasket is the issue, I would be appreciative.
 

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Another possibility, which I have done before, is it is easy to get a wire pinched under the intake as you are sliding the intake in, and if that is stuck under there, the manifold won't go down all the way, and will create a large vacuum leak.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Another possibility, which I have done before, is it is easy to get a wire pinched under the intake as you are sliding the intake in, and if that is stuck under there, the manifold won't go down all the way, and will create a large vacuum leak.
I put the intake on before I did any wiring but Ill double check. I have the gaskets so Ill do that tonight. If that doesnt fix it, do you know what else would cause the issues and the sound Im having?
 

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Felpro gaskets are as good as Motorcraft on these engines. Only OEM gaskets I went with on mine are the exhaust manifolds and rear main seal, Felpro everywhere else down to the valve guide seals. It's sealed tight as a drum.

I'm not saying there's no leak, but I still can't help but the attribute throttle response, shaky idle, and no power under 2500 rpm to the undegreed aftermarket cams.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Im starting to think against the gaskets too, I didnt start to swap them yet so I want to get some input before I commit.

I listened to the car run again and the noise is at its loudest from the very center of the engine, from the back of the alternator to throttle cable side of the plenum. Still is just a "woosh" sound but it is getting progressively louder. At this point, I dont have a clue.


Im thinking I would have had this engine swap done faster, for the same price, and with more power if I had gone with a 5.3 chevy. Even with having to swap the electronics.

I know that the cams would make their most if they were degreed, and they would act better if they were, but if they were the only issue it wouldnt be this bad.
 

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Im starting to think against the gaskets too, I didnt start to swap them yet so I want to get some input before I commit.

I listened to the car run again and the noise is at its loudest from the very center of the engine, from the back of the alternator to throttle cable side of the plenum. Still is just a "woosh" sound but it is getting progressively louder. At this point, I dont have a clue.


Im thinking I would have had this engine swap done faster, for the same price, and with more power if I had gone with a 5.3 chevy. Even with having to swap the electronics.

I know that the cams would make their most if they were degreed, and they would act better if they were, but if they were the only issue it wouldnt be this bad.
I'd love to see a 5.3L or a 350 swap just for the blasphemy.
-g
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I'd love to see a 5.3L or a 350 swap just for the blasphemy.
-g
I have know about this car for a while, comes out of Russia I think.

 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
I found this video and this is closest to the sound I am hearing. I am using this instead of my own car because it still really loud and the mic on my phone doesnt pick it up any noises in the engine bay. I am going to try a smoke test before I rip into anything.

 

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Discussion Starter #17
Massive Vacuum Leak

Ok, so the smoke test revealed a few places that make me kinda worried, but nothing is coming out under the intake so I feel a little better.

First, the vacuum line tree. I have a picture of what I found, and it looks like it is completely snapped! I know this will cause issues, so Im happy I found that. I know the FPR is attached to the red side. Im working on fixing it since I dont know where to get a new one.

Second, the IAC seems to have a lot of smoke coming from it, but its coming from a little black tab I have pictured as well. Is this supposed to be an opening? Its the same one the car had before the swap but I dont know if that is supposed to be open or not.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Took it for a drive. Over all seems better but Still has a Cylinder 7 misfire. Its getting fuel. Can some one tell me where the Fuel pump relay or fuse is so I can check spark?
 

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Unplug the inertia switch in driver side the trunk, there's a cut in the carpet at the top where it's located.

The vacuum tree you posted is the EGR vacuum regulator connector, the red line is the vacuum source to the regulator, green line is the actuated vacuum to control the valve. If this is broken off the regulator or unplugged you have definite a vacuum leak. If you don't have EGR, plug the red line.

There's a separate red line that goes straight from the plenum directly to the FPR.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Unplug the inertia switch in driver side the trunk, there's a cut in the carpet at the top where it's located.

The vacuum tree you posted is the EGR vacuum regulator connector, the red line is the vacuum source to the regulator, green line is the actuated vacuum to control the valve. If this is broken off the regulator or unplugged you have definite a vacuum leak. If you don't have EGR, plug the red line.

There's a separate red line that goes straight from the plenum directly to the FPR.
The EGR assembly is there but its not attached to the exhaust. I have a thin block off plate in between the valve and the plenum, just so it looks like its still connected. Could I just use a gasket maker to plug the inside of the line at the Regulator and EGR?
 
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