[danalba]

i did search i promise. coming across various threads i feel are not complete really with a straight answer. i came across one thread saying you net about the same gains out of going PI intake/cam and a tune (blue oval) on an NPI as you would if you were to completely swap over to DOHC.

this just raises question because im gathering PI equipment to do the swap over winter. but mad1gen is selling a DOHC not to far from me and its pretty tempting... i think i would like to throw around that i have the four cam 4.6 under the hood of a bird

and even if he were to get rid of that its not the first DOHC iv had a chance to scoop up close by

 

[Chris_Murder]

PI parts will cost less, trust me I know.

Even a full PI top end swap would more than likely cost less:
Used PI heads $150-800 (Craigslist, junkyard, coral, tccoa, modular head shop, ebay, etc..)
Used PI cams $50-100 (modular head shop)
New PI intake gaskets $40 (modular head shop)
Used PI intake manifold with aluminum crossover $100-200 (ebay, craigslist, tccoa)
Tune 100-125 for a re-tune on your sct chip (blue oval chips)
Head swap kit $100-140 (jegs, summit)
Coolant tube, water pump nipple, water pump o-ring, alt bracket $90 (modular head shop)

Total $630-1495

Gen 1 4v motor swap: Assuming this is a used motor you'll likely want to replace all of the gaskets, and clean or delete the IMRC's so heres a break down
motor $200-1500 (classifieds, craigslist, coral, lincolnvscadillac, ebay)
egr tube $100-180 (Ford only) [notorious for being broken on gen1's]
IMRC gaskets to head $10 (rockauto)
IMRC to intake manifold $6 (rockauto)
Coolant hoses (theres 7 of them) $60
Oil pan gasket $25
timing cover gaskets $25
Valve cover gaskets $60
Adapter housing gasket $5
Exhaust manifold gaskets $10
RPM switch $35-200 (to activate the imrc's)
Coolant pipe o-rings $12
Tune $175

$723-2268

Other things you would want to address while the motor is out and or apart are things like
DPFE sensor
TPS sensor
EGR
IAC
02 sensors
Intake tube (if your 4v doesn't come with one)
Torque Converter
Torque Converter seal
Transmission tail-shaft seal
Transmission dipstick tube o-ring
Transmission pan gasket
Transmission cooler
Paint (for parts)
POR-15 since you live in Michigan
timing chain tensioners for the heads
timing chain guides for the primary chains
spark plugs
plug wires
alternator if your 4v didnt come with one
24lb injectors if your 4v didn't come with them
injector rebuild kits
rear main seal
exhaust manifold hardware
new exhaust since yours will no longer connect from 2v to 4v
idler pulleys
belt
thermostat
etc....

Here's the spoon.

 

[danalba]

yes i guess your right. and you would know haha. i guess with a tune 400 plus the plates to be able to match up the trans and engine. so what? like 500 or so vs around 200? excluding labor since i would be doing the labor with help. i mean what other costs are we talking?

you have a PI and a DOHC bird. which do you prefer

btw cheers to also having an alpine bird. i love the color. always get compliments on the color

 

[Chris_Murder]

See edited post.

Currently I own a 97 4.6 with a complete PI top end swap and tune. The 95 will be getting all of those parts since there is a bottom end problem with the 97. The 97 is undergoing the DOHC swap. I pulled the motor from my 93 mark viii myself before sending it to the crusher. It worked out because they sort of payed me to have it. I payed $800 total into the mark VIII it got totalled and they wrote out a check for $1500 and took $150 away because I decided to keep the car. I always wanted a DOHC bird thats why I'm doing it. I have all of the parts at my disposal, along with lots and lots and lots of reading up on past swaps, errors made, decisions that were made, etc... I'm almost ready to put the DOHC in the 97, I'm waiting on my TC to come back from DirtyDog, then it's a matter of getting the tune from Lonnie and in it goes. I've literally acquired all of those parts and more. I'm being as thorough and methodical as possible with my swap. My pans much later down the line is for a vortech on the 4.6 dohc swap.

 

[guitar maestro]

i did search i promise. coming across various threads i feel are not complete really with a straight answer. i came across one thread saying you net about the same gains out of going PI intake/cam and a tune (blue oval) on an NPI as you would if you were to completely swap over to DOHC.

this just raises question because im gathering PI equipment to do the swap over winter. but mad1gen is selling a DOHC not to far from me and its pretty tempting... i think i would like to throw around that i have the four cam 4.6 under the hood of a bird

and even if he were to get rid of that its not the first DOHC iv had a chance to scoop up close by

a PI cam/intake swap + tune will net you around 220 ± 5 rwhp....(the variance is not because of just different dynos, but poorly maintained cars will dyno less due to more things causing frictional/pumping losses)

now, a PI head/cam/intake swap + tune will be closer to 235-240 rwhp....this is what most mark VIII 32V engines put down to the wheels stock, maybe a lil less....and its definitely cheaper because all the little things about a DOHC swap will nickel and dime you to death

 

[danalba]

wow. will be awesome when its done. i guess sometime in the future for me maybe. and thanks for the spoon haha. really though i appreciate the time. saved it for future reference. thanks

and maestro thanks for the numbers. would love to have the DOHC but like both you and murder say. nickel and dime you. and i just dont have time for that. i want to have the car for next summer so. thanks guys

 

[machausta]

PI parts will cost less, trust me I know.

Even a full PI top end swap would more than likely cost less:
Used PI heads $150-800 (Craigslist, junkyard, coral, tccoa, modular head shop, ebay, etc..)
Used PI cams $50-100 (modular head shop)
New PI intake gaskets $40 (modular head shop)
Used PI intake manifold with aluminum crossover $100-200 (ebay, craigslist, tccoa)
Tune 100-125 for a re-tune on your sct chip (blue oval chips)
Head swap kit $100-140 (jegs, summit)
Coolant tube, water pump nipple, water pump o-ring, alt bracket $90 (modular head shop)

Total $630-1495

My "real world" cost including some things I didn't expect to replace, etc.. was $871.72, but that includes a few parts I was gifted by local members. Just remember to budget double the price you start off thinking its going to cost. I thought I could do it for $500, and you see how well that worked out.

 

[danalba]

ya seems to be what everyone is saying. "unexpected costs"... well pi intake cams and 3.55 Tlok rear end along with a retune it is over the winter. I have no doubt I'll be pleased with the results I gain going that route. I'm curious what my 1/4 mile would be.. I would really just like to get down into the 13s

 

[master486]

Well those items won't get you there.

 

[guitar maestro]

not even close

 

[supergordo]

plus the plates to be able to match up the trans and engine.

What plates to match up the engine and transmission?? If you are referring to some type of adapter, you don't need anything like that. The bellhousing pattern on a 16V and a 32V are the same. The tranny's are the same. Esentially it is a direct drop in swap. It's all the little stuff that need's changing like the other guys stated already.

 

[danalba]

I'm thinking of a mark tc. and not even close? that's disappointing. even if I put in a higher stall converter down the road it won't get me even close??

 

[theterminator93]

For the numbers you're looking for you'll need a good set of gears in addition to a high stall converter with the H/C/I. A Mark or Marauder is better than stock, but you'll want something more like 3800+. With the setup you're referring to you would probably see mid-high 14s.

 

[danalba]

well it is what it is. that's the plan for now. I'll just have to take it to a track and find out. after the intake cams rear gears a retune(93). after that I'll be looking into a converter exhaust and jmod and minor weight removal. after that if I don't come close I'll just except it. it will be fast enough for a summer time DD. still will turn heads and still love the birds

 

[master486]

A Mark or Marauder is better than stock, but for you'll want something more like 3800+.

Fixed.

 

[Tbird1997]

god i wish i had money to put a high stall and gear in! stupid college! ugh... is a 3800 stall okay for daily driving?

220rwhp is that it? i was thinking more along 230+ with a tune.. the PI heads are only a 10hp increase. which for the trouble and money is not worth it IMHO.

its really disappointing that you can barely get 240rwhp with a basic I/C/H swap and tune out of these 2v modulars. even if you get ported PI heads and a stage 2 or 3 cam its not that much more of a gain and a LOT more money.

 

[guitar maestro]

god i wish i had money to put a high stall and gear in! stupid college! ugh... is a 3800 stall okay for daily driving?

220rwhp is that it? i was thinking more along 230+ with a tune.. the PI heads are only a 10hp increase. which for the trouble and money is not worth it IMHO.

its really disappointing that you can barely get 240rwhp with a basic I/C/H swap and tune out of these 2v modulars. even if you get ported PI heads and a stage 2 or 3 cam its not that much more of a gain and a LOT more money.

yup...thats it....I would know, I dyno'd mine.

10HP is only the half of it......compression always generates torque at ALL RPMs

 

[Grog6]

Here's the spoon.

Nice Spoon!

and its definitely cheaper because all the little things about a DOHC swap will nickel and dime you to death

Truer words were never spoken...

I thought I could do it for $500, and you see how well that worked out.

I tried the same thing; that was amazing how much I did and still wasn't close. Nick is sending me parts to finish the pi motor, and it just goes in, lol.

A PI longblock swap is the easiest by far, IMHO.

And no, an 03 towncar oil pan Won't fit, if anyone ever wonders.

 

[TGJ]

... is a 3800 stall okay for daily driving?...

Well it depends. I daily drive my Thunderbird and it has a 4200 RPM stall TC. This TC responds almost like the stock or the Mustang GT/Mark VIII TC does. My car will move forward or reverse at idle with no driver input from the throttle. The only really issue and it is not really an issue is, if you step on the throttle, the car instantly responds and takes off, much to the dismay of the rear tires...

There are some high stall TC's that do require a bit of rpm before the car moves. They are still a good converter but are a little more difficult to deal with on a daily driver because of the extra RPM required to get the car rolling initially.

If you get the right setup, then yes even a 4000+ RPM TC is okay for daily driving.

 

[danalba]

ya. I plan on going with a 3800 stall at some point. also with the new converter I'll be able to push the Rpms past 5200 right? the reason I can't with the stock converter is because it causes high stress after that amount and can balloon right? what rpms range would I be looking at with a nice aftermarket one? 6000 rpms as a redline? would this cause alot of stress to the engine at that high of rpms?