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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So far, I consider this build to have gone fairly well but taking a long time.

My most outstanding regret right now is this:
Livernois or MMC or MMR offer a lower case drain back kit for our engines, SOHC and DOHC I believe. It's $150.00 as I recall, and includes the hardware and the taps for installation.

I wish I had installed this kit while I had the engine out, on a stand, upside down, with the oil pan and windage tray removed. That would have been a smart move and would have saved me a lot of aggravation.
 

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There's lots of things we wish we had done while we were there.

For me, it's not having installed new valve stem seals when I had the entire top end apart. The other thing was having done a complete PI swap instead of just PI cams and PI intake.

Next time.
 

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1995 Thunderbird LX 4.6 red
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It's all part of the learning process. It will help when you plan the next stage of your build. We're always learning.
 
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I always thought those drainback kits were for max effort, high RPM applications? Like when you need every single available HP?
I remember seeing them when i built my Teksid, they are cool kits but i didn't really need anything that extreme. IDK how many HP are "saved" by using the kit, but i wouldn't beat yourself up over that imho. Plenty of fast cars out there that aren't running those kits.
Like you said you can always add it later if you think you need it.
 

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1991 Mercury Cougar LS 5.0 in restoration
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I always thought those drainback kits were for max effort, high RPM applications? Like when you need every single available HP?
It was suggested here because of the high sustained RPM at speed. It's not so much the HP of the application but those RPM for a longer period of time than a normal street car
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
That's right, the application is high Ron, not necessarily max torque or thereby max horsepower.
We may not need the torque, but to get to where we are going we need max rpm.

It's sustained high rpms, slowly accellerating.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
We intend to do some land speed racing.

Theoretically we will be at designated redline by the end of the run. To get to the speeds we want, without changing gear sets and tires to get there, having enough rpm room available is key.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Our stall speed is 4200rpm+
We run 3.73 gears currently
We run 275/40zr18, a 26.75" tire.
We only run in 3rd gear at WOT, never OD

Therefore, top speed at 6200 right now is about 138mph. Which is fine.

To get to 150 and 175 will require a gear change, but the point is the faster we go the more time we spend at high rpms, accelerating more slowly as we go faster.

Loading up the heads is alright intermittently, keeping them loaded will starve the bottom of oil. We need to avoid that some way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
This car has far exceeded every expectation I ever harbored. The latest (DOHC swap) runs amazingly well for not being tuned. The car continues to be inspiring.

So far, and it's been in my head for years, I can't find a wet sump quite up to the task.
There's lots of reasons it is superior (dry sump) but few attributes are compelling enough by themselves to warrant the cost (time and money) to put together a dry system, even used.
That said, we find ourselves needing the oil control for the sustained rpms.The dry sump eliminates drain back issues. The 3% overall power gain across the power curve by eliminating windage is certainly helpful as well. Maintaining a (-14psi) vacuum in the case is a big help to sealing and will allow low friction piston rings use for higher piston speeds and less parasitic losses. A dry sump can be preheated, and pre-primed easily eliminating cold start wear, and it eliminates the need for an accusump.

We would have to figure a wet sump's detriments and the cost to overcome..

How much for an accusump? $300.00
A pre-lubber? $300.00
A pre-heater? $200.00
A high volume variable speed,variable pressure oil pump???
Restrictions to flow from coolers, remote filters, requiring more volume or pressure???

A new dry sump pump 4 stage, oil pan,
mandrel drive, tank, lines and hardware as a full kit can be found for $3000.00
(Dave at ProWeld Performance)
I see used pumps, tanks, accessories on eBay for small money.

Call it $1500.00 for a used system?
Add $800.00 to the wet system I have, but still remain restricted to intermittent high rpms.

Its a tough call, as I am coming to a point where decisions have to be made about which way to go in the future.

Certainly the dry sump is a huge bonus if we do a FI power adder. Not sure about Nitrous. The parasitic oil reductions boost bhp around 25hp, a big help. And the premium rings are another 25hp parasitic loss prevented. That's about 350hp stock, before boost not including UD, exhaust, and Tuning. And we can run at 7000 RPM all day long.
Add 10 lbs of boost and I am at well beyond maximum power levels the stock rotating assembly can handle I believe.
Probably 5 to 7 lbs boost is plenty to get to 500bhp with a 350hp NA start.

I don't add up the expenses, but I do feel them.
 

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Teksid blocks have been run at >1500HP; there are pix here somewhere, where someone kept adding boost and nitrous until it broke. IIRC at 21lbs of boost and a 150 shot of nitrous. But he was trying to break it. :)
 

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Seems like a GT engine is what you need, it's a dry sump 5.4 in aluminum. :)
Back in the KarKraft days they had one for $20k.
 

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1994 Cougar XR7 DOHC/5-Speed
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Keep in mind that there are land speed racers in the 200mph club that run wet sump systems, switching to dry sump to go under 150 is like using the space shuttle to travel from Chicago to Atlanta. Modulars don’t have any oiling quirks that can’t be overcome just like the 70 year old pushrod engines that predominate in the sport.

If the engine sucks the pan dry and floods the heads at high RPM you could change the pump and pickup to a SOHC non-H.O. pump that doesn’t output so much volume, and even to run external drainbacks made from AN line threaded into the corners of the the heads that drain directly to the pan like a blower/turbo oil return. Thinking outside the box doesn’t mean reinventing the wheel.
 

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That's true, a AN12 line off the back corners to the pan would fix all that ****.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Excellent points. Thank you.
I have the winter to discuss any ideas you guys put forth. I really appreciate the input, as a novice so to speak, the mods you describe are new to me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Keep in mind that there are land speed racers in the 200mph club that run wet sump systems, switching to dry sump to go under 150 is like using the space shuttle to travel from Chicago to Atlanta. Modulars don’t have any oiling quirks that can’t be overcome just like the 70 year old pushrod engines that predominate in the sport.

If the engine sucks the pan dry and floods the heads at high RPM you could change the pump and pickup to a SOHC non-H.O. pump that doesn’t output so much volume, and even to run external drainbacks made from AN line threaded into the corners of the the heads that drain directly to the pan like a blower/turbo oil return. Thinking outside the box doesn’t mean reinventing the wheel.
BTW, I don't know where you got the under 150 figure.
The brackets start at 135 then 150, then 175+.

We have no plans to go any less fast than is possible, but we need to meet each bracket safety level.

The plan is to get to 175+ by 2024.

I just do not wish to exhaust all available mods to trying to improve the wet sump to a dry sump performance level.
I already know I have issues to deal with, crank roping, chain climb, and slow return to name three. Given it already has a kickout pan, windage tray and scraper, I would say I will be modifying the system heavily with external returns, drain back extensions, and you are suggesting a pump change too.
I don't want to reinvent the wheel, but it seems to me I have good reason to consider the options thoughtfully.
 
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