TCCoA Forums banner

1 - 20 of 53 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
817 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
More or less a conversation topic. What's it take to run with the big three (Mustang, Comaro, Charger) now a days? I know its not all about hp and we all start out in a pretty decisive hole. Anyone gone up against any yet? Most I've seen so far look at my Bird as a "not even bother" car. I know MM will have some good info to chime in with as far as different combinations and what-not. Including weight reductions im sure. Im starting this in the 5.0 section because my 4v is about to rust in half and I've already started to compile parts for an m5r2 swap in a 5.0. Looking forward to hearing alot of good stories and experiences.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
134 Posts
you want an engine that brings on the torque in bunches starting at about 1500rpm. you can build a nice 347 stroker motor to do that. or you can step up and start with a new heavy duty boss 302 block, drop in a 3.40 stroker crank, and bore the cylinders out to 4.125(yes the new boss will allow that) giving you 363 ci of raw power. with the right cam you will lay down some serious power, ford has one that makes 500hp. add to that some decent gears to go with your 5 speed, something like 3.73s or 4.10s, and watch the camaros and mustang disappear in your rear view.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,028 Posts
Are you talking straight line or road course? If you can get the structural rigidity upto par, the chassis will hold its own...
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
7,485 Posts
I don't know how well it will keep up with a new 5.0 at the track, but I will say that between the M5R2 swap, 3.27s, good heads/cam/intake, and a set of MAC long-tubes, it will be a fast and fun street car. If your goal is keeping up with the newer cars, I would start with that and see how close it gets you. If you wind up needing more power, a stroker, or the Dart block, or even swapping to a 351 based motor will be an option.
 

·
Boost!!!
Joined
·
814 Posts
I don't know how well it will keep up with a new 5.0 at the track, but I will say that between the M5R2 swap, 3.27s, good heads/cam/intake, and a set of MAC long-tubes, it will be a fast and fun street car. If your goal is keeping up with the newer cars, I would start with that and see how close it gets you. If you wind up needing more power, a stroker, or the Dart block, or even swapping to a 351 based motor will be an option.
Lol, no mention of the charger or camaro in your post. The real threat is the new stang and everyone knows it...lol The others just kinda fall in behind it. Go Ford!!!!:D
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,904 Posts
More or less a conversation topic. What's it take to run with the big three (Mustang, Camaro, Charger) now a days? I know its not all about hp and we all start out in a pretty decisive hole. Anyone gone up against any yet? Most I've seen so far look at my Bird as a "not even bother" car. I know MM will have some good info to chime in with as far as different combinations and what-not. Including weight reductions im sure. Im starting this in the 5.0 section because my 4v is about to rust in half and I've already started to compile parts for an m5r2 swap in a 5.0. Looking forward to hearing alot of good stories and experiences.
I kick their asses all the time. :tongue:

Racing Videos

It takes money. Lots and lots of money. See my gallery for a list of where the money went...
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,904 Posts
Yup.

I also like to add that your car can be as fast as your pockets are deep.

It all depends on how much you're willing to spend to get there. To get a Tbird running as fast as or faster than the modern Mustang GT 5.0 , Camaro SS, Charger, and other modern muscle cars takes a lot of time, money and resources.

It's the trifecta of going fast. Pick two and you'll sacrifice the third: Cheap, Fast, Reliable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
817 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Well I moved a few months ago to a house with a 2 car garage with plenty of room to disassemble and build so thats a plus. I have a 4cyl s10 for a daily driver to where my bird used to be my daily and everyone knows how hard it can be to build a serious power player when you have reliability and mpg to consider in a daily. This will be a build I can take my time with as needed because its not sittin outside in the elements. Workin for Advance gives me a little of an advantage as well. I figured the Stang would be the spoiler of the three. As corney as it may sound, I look up to alot of you guys when it comes to birds. Ya'll know your stuff and I go by what you say. We've been on this site together now for a long time. Im kinda torn between the setup for straight line or autocross. Autocross would seem fun with a 5 speed. Im sure the new Stang would be the spoiler in that too. Taking one of those three in a straight line however seems like it would make a bigger statement.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,904 Posts
Well, the money issue aside - it really should be understood without even having to be said.

You can have great straigh line performance and good autocross capabilities. It all depends on which direction you want to go with your car. Building HP is something you're going to want to do regardless. For the other stuff it comes down to what gear you want to put in the rear end and if you want a posi or open diff. There are members here who short track race, autocross, drift and of course drag race. Just look to the member who most closely fits the performace style that you're looking for and follow their lead. There's no one "right" way to build one of these. Find what works for you and fits your budget.

Build in stages. I started with the suspension then the drive shaft and a converter. Next I did the PI swap, exhaust and transmission with a better converter, followed a few years later by a better engine build and the paint job. Now I'm finally getting around to beefing up the rear end. It's a process for all of us - time and money permitting.

You can hang with the new stuff if you're willing to put the parts into your car to get there. I know it takes time. I've been building on my car now for about 5 years and dumping more money into it than any sane individual ever would. :tongue: It would be so much easer to just up and buy a new Mustang but hey, I love the MN12 platform.

Thank God I've got a good wife who puts up with my expensive hobby.

Best wishes with your build whatever direction it takes...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
817 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
That definatly makes sense to do it in stages. The first thing I have planned is that 5 speed swap. I had picked up a TL unit from an 89 SC that im gonna put the internals into my Mark diff housing. Going for alot of weight reduction with this one. Even cuttin the spare tire carrier out and replacing with flat aluminum. The exaust is only going mid car with turn downs. No A/C or smog crap. E-fan conversion as well. Thinkin of doin the motor last. It would need the assists of all the others to complete this quest.
 

·
West Virginia Chapter Director /, MA Drag Race Te
Joined
·
2,643 Posts
Yup.

I also like to add that your car can be as fast as your pockets are deep.

It all depends on how much you're willing to spend to get there. To get a Tbird running as fast as or faster than the modern Mustang GT 5.0 , Camaro SS, Charger, and other modern muscle cars takes a lot of time, money and resources.

It's the trifecta of going fast. Pick two and you'll sacrifice the third: Cheap, Fast, Reliable.
NO WAY, ROFL!!!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,196 Posts
I kick their asses all the time. :tongue:

Racing Videos

It takes money. Lots and lots of money. See my gallery for a list of where the money went...
Ever since I joined here, your car has been one of my top 5 favorites :).

That definatly makes sense to do it in stages. The first thing I have planned is that 5 speed swap. I had picked up a TL unit from an 89 SC that im gonna put the internals into my Mark diff housing. Going for alot of weight reduction with this one. Even cuttin the spare tire carrier out and replacing with flat aluminum. The exaust is only going mid car with turn downs. No A/C or smog crap. E-fan conversion as well. Thinkin of doin the motor last. It would need the assists of all the others to complete this quest.
Since weight reduction has been brought up, has anybody ever come out with carbon fiber panels and hood? I know there's plenty of fiberglass hoods out there, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone come up with a carbon fiber solution. Just a general question to anyone who can answer :).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
817 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Not sure on that. I have a fiberglass hood that will be the only thing transferred over along with the 95 front end to match. Of course all the Mark pieces as well. Those Cobra wheels I have now are extremely heavy. May do a stang hub swap to open my options. These guys know how to get the power to the ground which is the most important part.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
135 Posts
i've actually been up against a camaro on the street... i wasn't impressed by it's performance... i'd say stock vs stock, these 4.6 cougars/birds against the basic v-6 versions of those vehicles they are about level. now a SS camaro or a RTchally, whole different ballpark.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,148 Posts
CDsDontBurn said:
Since weight reduction has been brought up, has anybody ever come out with carbon fiber panels and hood? I know there's plenty of fiberglass hoods out there, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone come up with a carbon fiber solution. Just a general question to anyone who can answer .

That's a very good question. As far as I know there are no true carbon fiber hoods available for our cars. There are some for tuner cars.

However, most of the parts that are available for those cars are standard wet layup pieces. They generally have a single carbon cosmetic layer followed by several layers of fiberglass. These parts hold no advantage over pure fiberglass for weight or strength.

Vacuum bagging, vacuum infusion and prepreg/autoclave procedures are all methods of reducing the carbon/epoxy ratio, as well as compacting the plies, which increases stiffness and decreases weight. A wet layup part can have a cloth/resin ratio of as much as 15/85. This constitutes a huge amount of extra weight and horrible fiber matrix for strength. Aerospace layups with pre-preg and an autoclave cure show ratio's in the area of 90/10. They also show a lot less voids/defects (on a macro and a micro scale) due to the extreme pressure that it's cured at. These are the real deal. Known as "dry carbon fiber". A one off hood for my car would probably approach the cost of the car when sold new.

It is possible to purchase carbon fiber cloth, and make parts at home using epoxy.
Medium weight carbon fiber cloth cost about $10.00 a square foot, and is about 0.01 inches thick. About 20 layers would be needed to make a part 3/16 of an inch thick. Equates to around $200.00 a square foot. Actually 3/16 isn't thick enough. A hood that size would need to be thicker or else it will crack. So perhaps double those figures. Again, for me personally, cost prohibits this idea, especially since, as mentioned above, this process offers little advantage over pure, cheap, fiberglass.

In my opinion, because of the cost of carbon fiber, fiberglass is really my only choice. And, moreover, strength, which carbon fiber is superior, is not as much of a factor as toughness, since the hood doesn't support any weight. Fiberglass is tougher, offers better flexibility, and is almost as light as carbon fiber. Easier to repair than carbon fiber.

One could use the wet layup method, and add a layer of carbon fiber cloth to the fiberglass because many do like the look of carbon fiber pieces.

Race.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,904 Posts
i've actually been up against a camaro on the street... i wasn't impressed by it's performance... i'd say stock vs stock, these 4.6 cougars/birds against the basic v-6 versions of those vehicles they are about level. now a SS camaro or a RTchally, whole different ballpark.
One of my videos is a run against a new (at the time) V6 Camaro. I beat him handily but the video also got the numbers he put up.

The car only managed a 15.5 @ 92.54 So yea, their performance is very much in line with the stock 4.6.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9zZMduBFlY

I've also beaten modified Camaro SS's - One twin-turbo charged and one supercharged. Their owners were not happy. :tongue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLsN9CViJaM
 

·
WOT Junkie and avid corn burner
Joined
·
3,734 Posts
Goes to show that simplicity can trump grandiosity.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,634 Posts
That's a very good question. As far as I know there are no true carbon fiber hoods available for our cars. There are some for tuner cars.

However, most of the parts that are available for those cars are standard wet layup pieces. They generally have a single carbon cosmetic layer followed by several layers of fiberglass. These parts hold no advantage over pure fiberglass for weight or strength.

Vacuum bagging, vacuum infusion and prepreg/autoclave procedures are all methods of reducing the carbon/epoxy ratio, as well as compacting the plies, which increases stiffness and decreases weight. A wet layup part can have a cloth/resin ratio of as much as 15/85. This constitutes a huge amount of extra weight and horrible fiber matrix for strength. Aerospace layups with pre-preg and an autoclave cure show ratio's in the area of 90/10. They also show a lot less voids/defects (on a macro and a micro scale) due to the extreme pressure that it's cured at. These are the real deal. Known as "dry carbon fiber". A one off hood for my car would probably approach the cost of the car when sold new.

It is possible to purchase carbon fiber cloth, and make parts at home using epoxy.
Medium weight carbon fiber cloth cost about $10.00 a square foot, and is about 0.01 inches thick. About 20 layers would be needed to make a part 3/16 of an inch thick. Equates to around $200.00 a square foot. Actually 3/16 isn't thick enough. A hood that size would need to be thicker or else it will crack. So perhaps double those figures. Again, for me personally, cost prohibits this idea, especially since, as mentioned above, this process offers little advantage over pure, cheap, fiberglass.

In my opinion, because of the cost of carbon fiber, fiberglass is really my only choice. And, moreover, strength, which carbon fiber is superior, is not as much of a factor as toughness, since the hood doesn't support any weight. Fiberglass is tougher, offers better flexibility, and is almost as light as carbon fiber. Easier to repair than carbon fiber.

One could use the wet layup method, and add a layer of carbon fiber cloth to the fiberglass because many do like the look of carbon fiber pieces.

Race.
... which is why some people only use CF for the last visible layer and old fiberglass for the structural rigidity. For "street" cred.
Bah. at that point, you might as well use this stuff: http://www.ebay.com/itm/3D-Top-Grade-BLack-12-x-60-Carbon-Fiber-Vinyl-Wrap-Bubble-Free-Air-Release-/390579027726?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5af052ff0e&vxp=mtr

I made a fiberglass lid for a trunklid at the track. I did it more as a learning experience than anything else but the side benefit is that I can drive to the track (car is still street legal), drop the trunklid w/ all the lights attached, and go road racing w/ probably 30-40 LBs less weight on the rear. Most of you wouldn't find the fit or finish acceptable (there's still a gap in the rear, it's held on with four bolts , and I'm thinking about routing the exhaust through the gap Kaido racer style.)

It probably cost me $40 in materials.


-g
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
7,485 Posts
... which is why some people only use CF for the last visible layer and old fiberglass for the structural rigidity. For "street" cred.
Bah. at that point, you might as well use this stuff: http://www.ebay.com/itm/3D-Top-Grade-BLack-12-x-60-Carbon-Fiber-Vinyl-Wrap-Bubble-Free-Air-Release-/390579027726?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5af052ff0e&vxp=mtr

I made a fiberglass lid for a trunklid at the track. I did it more as a learning experience than anything else but the side benefit is that I can drive to the track (car is still street legal), drop the trunklid w/ all the lights attached, and go road racing w/ probably 30-40 LBs less weight on the rear. Most of you wouldn't find the fit or finish acceptable (there's still a gap in the rear, it's held on with four bolts , and I'm thinking about routing the exhaust through the gap Kaido racer style.)

It probably cost me $40 in materials.


-g
Can I see some pics of this trunk lid?
 
1 - 20 of 53 Posts
Top