TCCoA Forums banner

1 - 20 of 111 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,894 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I know every bench racing n00b tard in the world use to tend to come on here and make a lot of fuss over doing nothing but I need to talk some actual specifics. I don't want to get into the maybe and the possibilities, I would like to know what works and go with it. I don't want to be ground breaking, I want that slushbox out, a manual transmission matches what I want to do with the car far better then an auto does. The me of 10 years ago when I last had a mn12 loved me some auto's but that was when I just couldn't afford a mustang. I could afford one now, just don't wanna.

Anyways, I browsed through papa john's article for the t45. I have seen a good bit of blown up t45's over the years, I may swap one, but would like to lean towards getting a nice used tr3650 or similar. They seem to be able to be had in the 600-1000 range.

What I do want to tackle before I even pull the stock 4r, is do the clutch pedal and the slave cylinder plumbing. I am going to retain floor E-brake, I love cup holders and do not want to part from my 97 console.

I heard chatter guys are running some era of s10 slave cylinder, and I am unsure of what they are doing for plumbing. The other issue is sourcing an SC pedal, I feel as though I could hybrid together a set of pedals from a 94-2004 era mustang, but maybe I aim selling myself to expensive.

flywheel and clutch are gravy to figure out, I would opt in the near stock range 96-04 flywheel and clutch. Driveshaft is the same, I have heard crown vic shafts work, but I would probably just find a police package car grab the shaft and get it sized to the length I need from my driveshaft shop.

So the only real variables are the pedals and slave.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
7,558 Posts
A T45 swap is the cheapest way to get a stick in the car and working. The T45 is a good strong trans, with the only real weak link being the 3-4 shift fork. There are companies that make a billet steel replacement shift fork, but that basically requires rebuilding the transmission to replace it. The other disadvantage of the T45 is the shifter location being too far forward, which requires either fabricating papa john's extension box, or cutting a hole in the floor for and making a remote mount shifter. As for the crown vic driveshaft, a stock civilian crown vic steel driveshaft is the right length for the T45 swap, but the police driveshaft is 1" too short. It will physically work to move the car, but it is not ideal. If you want an aluminum driveshaft, you will have to have one made, or get a MarkVIII shaft shortened. The length you are looking for is 56.5" centerline to centerline. For actuating the clutch, there are a few options. I was the one who figured out the S10 slave, and you need one for a 94/95 4-cyl S10. This will require making a bracket to bolt the slave to the side of the trans to push on the stock mustang clutch fork. Another option is a pull type slave, which is more expensive, but won't require any bracket to be made. Another option is a hydraulic throw out bearing mounted inside the bell housing, but I don't recommend that due to if anything goes wrong, you have to drop the trans to change it.

Next up on the trans list is the 99-04 TR-3650. The advantage of this trans is no more 3-4 shift fork problems, and a synchronized reverse. Installation is exactly the same as the T-45 with the added expense of needing an extended range speedcal to make the speedo read accurately.

Next up would be the 05-10 Mustang TR-3650. The biggest advantages to using this trans is ease of install. The 05+ Mustang shifter will land exactly where it needs to be in our cars, and the stock Mustang hydraulic throw out bearing can be used with the stock SC clutch pedal and master, making it literally a bolt-in swap. The downfall to this swap is cost. In addition to still needing an extended range speedcal, you will also need a custom fabricated driveshaft, as there is no stock application that will come close to working.

Next on the list would be the various 6-speeds. A T-56 has been done a few times, but for the cost and difficulty of swapping it in, really isn't worth it. The TR-6060 out of the 06+ Shelby GT500, as well as the Getrag 6-speed in the 11+ Mustangs both should swap in just as easily as the 05+ TR-3650, only the trans itself would likely cost more.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,916 Posts
A T45 swap is the cheapest way to get a stick in the car and working. The T45 is a good strong trans, with the only real weak link being the 3-4 shift fork. There are companies that make a billet steel replacement shift fork, but that basically requires rebuilding the transmission to replace it. The other disadvantage of the T45 is the shifter location being too far forward, which requires either fabricating papa john's extension box, or cutting a hole in the floor for and making a remote mount shifter. As for the crown vic driveshaft, a stock civilian crown vic steel driveshaft is the right length for the T45 swap, but the police driveshaft is 1" too short. It will physically work to move the car, but it is not ideal. If you want an aluminum driveshaft, you will have to have one made, or get a MarkVIII shaft shortened. The length you are looking for is 56.5" centerline to centerline. For actuating the clutch, there are a few options. I was the one who figured out the S10 slave, and you need one for a 94/95 4-cyl S10. This will require making a bracket to bolt the slave to the side of the trans to push on the stock mustang clutch fork. Another option is a pull type slave, which is more expensive, but won't require any bracket to be made. Another option is a hydraulic throw out bearing mounted inside the bell housing, but I don't recommend that due to if anything goes wrong, you have to drop the trans to change it.

Next up on the trans list is the 99-04 TR-3650. The advantage of this trans is no more 3-4 shift fork problems, and a synchronized reverse. Installation is exactly the same as the T-45 with the added expense of needing an extended range speedcal to make the speedo read accurately.

Next up would be the 05-10 Mustang TR-3650. The biggest advantages to using this trans is ease of install. The 05+ Mustang shifter will land exactly where it needs to be in our cars, and the stock Mustang hydraulic throw out bearing can be used with the stock SC clutch pedal and master, making it literally a bolt-in swap. The downfall to this swap is cost. In addition to still needing an extended range speedcal, you will also need a custom fabricated driveshaft, as there is no stock application that will come close to working.

Next on the list would be the various 6-speeds. A T-56 has been done a few times, but for the cost and difficulty of swapping it in, really isn't worth it. The TR-6060 out of the 06+ Shelby GT500, as well as the Getrag 6-speed in the 11+ Mustangs both should swap in just as easily as the 05+ TR-3650, only the trans itself would likely cost more.
Gear ratios are also an important factor.

Depending on what rear gears you're running will make which transmission you choose/ratios in the transmission more important.

1-4 are important, but for cruising 5th (or 6th if you have it) is also critical. If you have 3.73's for example, here's a list of RPM's at speed with a stock size tire.
Stock, 4r70w is a .7 OD, 70mph is 2300 rpm, 75mph is about 2500.
The t-45 has a .67 OD, 70 is 2200, 75 is 2400
The TR3650 (02-04) is a .62 OD, 70 is 2000rpm, 75 is 2200
the 05+ 3650 is a .68 OD, so very close to the T45, 70 is 2200, 75 is 2400
The T56 can have either a .62 or a .5, we already know the .62, so the .5 is 1650rpm, while 75 is just under 1800 rpm. Both of which are too low for decent mpg if my 2002 Crown Vic with 2.73 rear gears is any evidence.
The TR6060 has a .62 or a .5 as well (it's just an upgraded T56, same as the T56 Magnum)
The MT-82 from the 11+ Mustangs has a .65 OD, but has the added advantage of being a much closer ratio with only a single overdrive, unlike the T56, T56Mag, and 6060 which have double overdrives. The MT-82 will get you just over 2100RPM at 70, an 2300 at 75mph

Me personally, if I was going for a six speed, I'd try for an MT-82 or a T56 Magnum. Both are expensive, but the MT-82 has five "normal" gears with 5th being direct drive, and sixth being a nice OD for cruising. The T56Magnum, having two models, one with closer ratios and a .62 OD would be my choice, as it has many advantages, including (if you get the actual T56 Magnum, not the 6060) a mechanical speedometer option. The other OD in the .62 gearset is a .80 to 1, so it's better for lower speeds while giving you a good cruise gear.

My experience with the ford 4.6 is that it's sweet spot for cruising is between 2000 and 2300 rpm. When I had a 2002 Crown Vic, it had 2.73 gears and the .7 OD. I was barely turning 1700 RPM at 75mph, and it got HORRIBLE mileage on the highway. I averaged 20mpg on my trip from Houston to Duluth, keeping to the speed limit the whole time. The only time I got better was one spot in Kansas where the posted limit was 80, so I kicked it up to 85 and I got 24mpg. My other 4.6 cars (1997 Thunderbird stock with 3.27, 1999 Mustang GT with 3.27 and T45, and my current 1997 Thunderbird with 3.73's) get their best mileage between 2000 and 2300. My first Thunderbird would get me 27mpg reliably at 75mph (2200rpm), my Mustang getting me around 26-28 at 75 (2150 rpm) and my current car getting me 25mpg at 65mph (just over 2300 rpm, 70 in my car is 2400, and gets me 24mpg, due to my smaller diameter tires).

So, for the fun driving aspect, any manual will help that. My opinion is that the T56Mag and the MT-82 are the best choices, but also the two most expensive.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
17,150 Posts
As for the crown vic driveshaft, a stock civilian crown vic steel driveshaft is the right length for the T45 swap, but the police driveshaft is 1" too short. It will physically work to move the car, but it is not ideal. If you want an aluminum driveshaft, you will have to have one made, or get a MarkVIII shaft shortened. The length you are looking for is 56.5" centerline to centerline.
I cheated with mine, I used the aluminum P71 driveshaft but also swapped on the large diameter P71 pinion/companion flange and used a 3/4" driveshaft spacer made for lift kits to do fill most of the gap(there's also a steeda spacer that will work with the stock size flanges but it's only 3/8"). Really even that isn't totally necessary IMO, I used it without for some time, it's not like these are stick axle cars where suspension travel is moving the yoke in and out.

Next up on the trans list is the 99-04 TR-3650. The advantage of this trans is no more 3-4 shift fork problems, and a synchronized reverse. Installation is exactly the same as the T-45 with the added expense of needing an extended range speedcal to make the speedo read accurately.
There are no 99-00 TR3650s, those two years were T45s and they also need a speed cal. Those are the best years of T45 to find though, there were numerous upgrades including carbon fiber lined blocker rings in that year range.

Also, 01-04 TR3650s have their issues as well, the root of the problems may be the fact that Ford improperly speced the fluid level too high, causing difficult shifts in some gears, especially second, and all sorts of TSBs were done to remedy this until it was mostly sorted with the 03-04 units, but the fluid level problem still wasn't corrected until the 05 versions. So be wary that any trans you find may have had an owner applying excessive force to get into gear and bent forks, ground gears, ect. I spent a lot of time and money fixing my 04 trans due to that. Funnily enough all internals are 100% identical in the 05-10 versions and they've generally been regarded as quite reliable, only change besides linkages was the fluid level spec.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,894 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
I am not to concerned about picking the transmission based on gears, I will probably try and slam a stick into the car sooner then anything else. So this swap is not as daunting as people make it out to be. I did see the article on the speed cal wiring.

Currently there is a local 07 TR3650 for 600$ I was thinking of going with that. I don't want a 6speed, they cost to much and in my own mind I just don't care to have one. T56s are heavy (I think?) but 6 gears is just a unneeded luxury to me. 5 speeds have the sweet price point right now because people all want 6 speeds. I think I can do the pedals and the slave before I get working on putting the stick into the car. It will be so glamorous driving an auto car with a clutch pedal.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
17,150 Posts
I agree, most of the 6 speeds like the T56 are just double overdrive, so you have two pokey economy gears rather than one, and on top of that the ratios aren't that great looking (to me anyway) for a naturally aspirated mod motor over the T45/TR3650. MT82s have better ratios with a 5th direct, but they have beta issues themselves. TR3650s weigh more than the T45 though if you're concerned about weight, and with the 07 trans the driveshaft will be $$$

I drove my car for 8 months with 5 speed pedals and an auto, it's totally baller! :tongue:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,894 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
so the general choice is late model t45. When I was in the mod motors before in the mid 2000s you have no idea how many blown up t45s I came across. I guess I will go ahead and bite the bullet and go with one of these, they seem more plentiful and cheap. eBay shows a few in the sub 1000 range.

96 01 Mustang Cobra T 45 External Hydraulic Slave Kit | eBay

is this kind of what to expect to emulate with the slave setup? That price seems high.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,894 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
so looking on car-parts.com looks like t45s can be had as cheap as 400$. I think I am sold. The 98 and lower ones are the one that would be the easiest to slide into a bird correct? The trade off being a little less strength vs the 99-00
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,916 Posts
so looking on car-parts.com looks like t45s can be had as cheap as 400$. I think I am sold. The 98 and lower ones are the one that would be the easiest to slide into a bird correct? The trade off being a little less strength vs the 99-00
1996-mid 2001 are T45, Mid 01-04 are TR3650, and 05+ are the "long" 3650's. The early transmissions (T45/pre 05 3650) need an extension for the shifter to hit the right spot. Not too hard to fab up, but it's a little work. The later transmissions (anything 05 up) will bolt right up as far as shifter location, but will need the speedcal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,887 Posts
I would go for one with the shifter in the right spot, and deal with the other specifics.

Not saying it would be like this, but I saw an old AMX with a 6 spd swap, and the shifter was the ugliest thing you ever saw. It had a big 90 deg turn towards the front. It needed a console to hide all that ****.

Al
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,916 Posts
I would go for one with the shifter in the right spot, and deal with the other specifics.

Not saying it would be like this, but I saw an old AMX with a 6 spd swap, and the shifter was the ugliest thing you ever saw. It had a big 90 deg turn towards the front. It needed a console to hide all that ****.

Al
Agreed, the 05+ transmissions cost a little more, and need a speedcal, but physically bolt right in. Just take the PRND21 template out, fab up a boot (I believe the C5 Corvette boot works well) and row those gears.

I've been working on the math, and the MT82 doesn't go well with short gears. First gear is very short, 3.66:1 and second is 2.43:1 If I had 3:55's or 3.31:1 rear gears, it'd be a great transmission, but with my 3.73's I'd have to shift all the way to third to get up to 60mph!

The T56Magnum however, while more expensive, has a 2.66:1 first, and 1.78 second, so I'd be at 49mph at 6500RPM with the T56, vs 31mph (and there VERY quickly) with the MT82. It'd be a great corner carving transmission with taller gears, but I don't want to row all the way to 3rd, or change out the rear gears either. Plus with the T56 Magnum having mechanical pickups, I should be able to not have to fuss with a speedcal.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
17,150 Posts
Agreed, the 05+ transmissions cost a little more, and need a speedcal, but physically bolt right in. Just take the PRND21 template out, fab up a boot (I believe the C5 Corvette boot works well) and row those gears.

I've been working on the math, and the MT82 doesn't go well with short gears. First gear is very short, 3.66:1 and second is 2.43:1 If I had 3:55's or 3.31:1 rear gears, it'd be a great transmission, but with my 3.73's I'd have to shift all the way to third to get up to 60mph!

The T56Magnum however, while more expensive, has a 2.66:1 first, and 1.78 second, so I'd be at 49mph at 6500RPM with the T56, vs 31mph (and there VERY quickly) with the MT82. It'd be a great corner carving transmission with taller gears, but I don't want to row all the way to 3rd, or change out the rear gears either. Plus with the T56 Magnum having mechanical pickups, I should be able to not have to fuss with a speedcal.
I guess it depends on your grand plans, these are revvy motors with shitty low end, and a 2.66 first is even lower than the factory 4R70w 2.84, bleh. T56 ratios work better in conjunction with a lazy large displacement engines or ones with a positive displacement supercharger, which is why Ford used it on the 03 Cobra(not strength as commonly believed, the T56 is about as strong as the T45). I wouldn't even consider using a T56 on a NA/centri 4.6

As for the speedcal, the adjustability is quite nice. I know you've mentioned your tire selection being based on speedo accuracy numerous times but with the speedcal you can use whatever you want without worry, just do the math and set the switches.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
7,558 Posts
The S10 slave setup will work similar to the one you posted, however the slave bolts up differently, so the bracket is a little more difficult to make, but not bad, as long as you can weld, and way cheaper than the $250 one you posted. Once you have the slave and the trans in front of you, it will be pretty clear how you need to make the bracket.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,916 Posts
I guess it depends on your grand plans, these are revvy motors with shitty low end, and a 2.66 first is even lower than the factory 4R70w 2.84, bleh. T56 ratios work better in conjunction with a lazy large displacement engines or ones with a positive displacement supercharger, which is why Ford used it on the 03 Cobra(not strength as commonly believed, the T56 is about as strong as the T45). I wouldn't even consider using a T56 on a NA/centri 4.6

As for the speedcal, the adjustability is quite nice. I know you've mentioned your tire selection being based on speedo accuracy numerous times but with the speedcal you can use whatever you want without worry, just do the math and set the switches.
True, Just the concept of shifting all the way up to third to get to 60 bugs me a little.

When I actually have money to put towards it, I'll give it a real thought process and make decisions from there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,894 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
The S10 slave setup will work similar to the one you posted, however the slave bolts up differently, so the bracket is a little more difficult to make, but not bad, as long as you can weld, and way cheaper than the $250 one you posted. Once you have the slave and the trans in front of you, it will be pretty clear how you need to make the bracket.
I can weld so I think I will be alright. So sounds like the hardest thing on a t45 would be the shifter (that really doesn't seem to bad) and the 'hardest' part being sourcing 3 pedals if I can't get an sc one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,472 Posts
True, Just the concept of shifting all the way up to third to get to 60 bugs me a little.

When I actually have money to put towards it, I'll give it a real thought process and make decisions from there.
Why, with my AOD setup and 3.73s I need 3rd for 60 (~3000RPM). Well just ran the numbers and why yes can get to 60 in 2nd 4500RPM with my redline at 5250 and power falls off at 4500.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
17,150 Posts
True, Just the concept of shifting all the way up to third to get to 60 bugs me a little.
Shift higher:D

Problem is with gears that low on the T56 you're going to need more rear gear to compensate(way more than 3.73), just as you do if you want a fast auto, shifting to third anyway to get to 60, but now pulling high revs on the highway. Worst of both worlds. I like the MT82 ratios quite a lot for a NA 4.6, it's basically a TR3650 with an extra gear, I'm just leery about finding one used that doesn't need work due to their quirks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,916 Posts
Why, with my AOD setup and 3.73s I need 3rd for 60 (~3000RPM). Well just ran the numbers and why yes can get to 60 in 2nd 4500RPM with my redline at 5250 and power falls off at 4500.
You have an AOD, which has a much taller 2nd than the stick shifts we're talking about. My 4r70W can do well over 60 in second too.

My new motor is a 2003 Explorer with Kooks headers, MHS StockMod ported heads with valve work, MHS Stage 2 cams, 75mm Accufab intake elbow and throttle body, I expect power up to 6000.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,916 Posts
Shift higher:D

Problem is with gears that low on the T56 you're going to need more rear gear to compensate(way more than 3.73), just as you do if you want a fast auto, shifting to third anyway to get to 60, but now pulling high revs on the highway. Worst of both worlds. I like the MT82 ratios quite a lot for a NA 4.6, it's basically a TR3650 with an extra gear, I'm just leery about finding one used that doesn't need work due to their quirks

I'd shift higher, but I'm running a stock bottom end, and I was under the impression that 6500 was the upper limit if I don't want to destroy another motor. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,894 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
You guys are thinking more then you need to. I want to slam a stick in there on the cheap because it's lighter then a 4R, my stock 95 4R has conniptions daily, it will improve driver interaction, and I think I can do it cheaper than a fully built 4R.

I don't care about where my 2nd or 3rd gear gets me to 60mph. As of this second I foresee a stick in the car before the 3.08s get changed, so it doesn't matter one bit what's there right this second. I also, and I really mean this, hate t56s. I'd much rather do a built 4R than a t56

6500 is the upper realm stock 2v bottom ends should go to so I have heard. I've spun a stock 96 bird to 6k more then a few times back in the day.

Hey woodman you still using that sc pedal? I should have stole that b from you. I didn't know then that I now have a 3 pedal desire.
 
1 - 20 of 111 Posts
Top