It is funny every time I watch a video and see the turbo busted out I always know the discharge pipe is going to be stupidly and lazily exiting the front somewhere. In that video I actually was pleasantly surprised it wasn’t sticking straight up out of the hood at least…. Until they swapped to the bigger turbo and did it anyway 😬 I actually liked Roadkill because they’d often buy weird sketchy builds or beyond savable cars and really put them to the test with a long roadtrip or use them in some other inappropriate format with usually hilariously predictable results, though that show has way declined into this sort of thing too, there’s too much content competing for views, so all the creators are churning out the same quick never to be revisited hack builds(which I think the parent company, Dicovery, is foisting into roadkill and hot rod garage).Ya, I like Tony, he is great (and funny) on Hot Rod Garage (with Lucky, especially), drift racer guy. What I don't like about a lot of these builds, and that includes the Hot Rod Garage ones, is that many times they make it sound like they're going to make a car faster and handle better when what they really mean is they're going to butcher a car into just a weekend race car, meaning it's useless as a car. You can do anything you want to a race car as long as you don't care how uncomfortable it is and how terrible it is as a daily driver at the end.
I prefer the shows that leave a car as-is (keep/fix the air-conditioning, heating, stereo, etc.) and add to it, make it faster, handle better. Or, make a true race car that is practically unrecognizable on the street with all the race gear, ok, but stop calling it a Mark VIII or a Camaro or whatever, it's not a car anymore, just a race car. In that sense I prefer shows like Wheeler Dealers though they tend to lean too far into just bring it back to functioning stock with very minor upgrades. But this kind of build is worthless to me, there is no "Oh, I should do that to my car, too!" because of how much they removed from the engine bay.
I would have wanted the exhaust to exit out the rear, I'm tired of the steam locomotive looking turbo builds with pipes sticking out everywhere in the front. I have a question about the exhaust under the car (the big loop). Isn't it really compromising the exhaust flow to have the exhaust basically run into itself on the passenger side? I would have expected to have the 2 halves merge around the middle (at the converter) like an 'm'. Not at the exact middle, more like on the passenger side of the 'n' and then run that back forward and up into the turbo. Wouldn't that be much better for exhaust flow? I have no idea how that would help horsepower, I'm just wondering about the pressure on the passenger side where that elbow is for the up pipe.
Roadkill is at its best when it features ongoing project cars Freiberger or Finnegan actually care about or their own car - crusher Camaro, General Mayhem, Disgustang, Blasphemi, etc. Roadkill Garage is usually good because it’s mostly cars plucked off of Dulcich’s property. I think the main show’s been declining since Dodge started sponsoring them, Discovery yanking them off of YouTube made it even worse. I heard Freiberger and Finnegan aren’t too fond of that move either.The various Motortrend shows are starting to bleed into each other but Hot Rod Garage and Roadkill Garage are probably the best ones. Roadkill tends to be too stupid, whenever I hear them say something like whoops, we sort of didn't address the sketchy radiator (or distributor or other key part) back when we were dealing with the car I'm now convinced they did that on purpose hoping that piece of **** would fail on them and they could have their roadside sloppy fix moment. But it's still a pretty good show. Roadkill Garage (I think) is where I learned about the Chrysler Jet, the small boat powered by a small-block V8 with special exhaust manifolds, and it's got a boat version of the Super Bee! I even ordered the shirt from the only place on Earth that seems to have them -
Chrysler Jet Unisex Heavy Cotton Tee by Classic Boater
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Maybe in this case the show hits too close to home lol Moreover I don’t particularly like the host, and don’t really like the selection of cars they use, it’s mostly dull Euro cars, and watching a 2005 Mercedes get tie rod ends with the host shouting excitedly about every mundane feature in his cockney accent makes that show feel like it’s two hours long.The flipping part interests me the least and it's, thankfully, at the end. I just like watching them go through the cars, explaining the typical problems for that particular model and how you're supposed to handle them, the obvious upgrades (brakes, bushings, etc.) and the occasional performance upgrades, the interior fixes (I can't stand car shows where the car is "done" yet the interior is gutted and they're lucky there's actual glass installed) and body work. I also like the "save money" repairs where they take the component apart and replace the worn seals, bushings or whatever so that the thing works again for the cost of parts (like $30) vs. replacing the whole thing (like $200).
If you want graveyard carz like mopar content without the fake reality show shop nonsense, check out junkerup on YouTube. He’s roadkill adjacent, he did the “restoration” of general mayhem and a few other projects for them behind the scenes in his little car port, like everybody else a little bit of his personality goes a long way but his restoration videos and workmanship are superb.Ya, some are worse than others. I love Mopars but I can't stand watching Graveyard Carz, even with all the rare Dodge/Plymouth knowledge in that guy's head, because of his insistence in trying to be funny (he isn't) and constantly insulting his crew, like they're borderline retarded but he must be dumb, too, to keep them around. It's even worse on Bitchin' Rides, they actually try to do comedy that doesn't really have anything to do with the cars themselves, just lame moments between Kindig an Kevdogg (or whatever ridiculous, lazy nickname he has) that wastes around 5 minutes at a time. Thanks for nothing, jackasses, I want to hear about the cars, not you!
Finnegan’s garage is way better than Faster with Finnegan, though you get a lot of exposure to Mike’s water cooled credit cards on it as well.Wait, nobody is a fan of "faster with finnegan"? The show where they show you how to ruin a car and make it worse all while spending money.
Tony is probably my least favorite host besides mike, i do like his offshoot stuff more but he is a bit too hacky. Was definitely cringing when i seen what they were doing with the exhaust and cutting the hole in the floor. I like tf outta lucky, freiburger and dulcich. I think roadkill garage is easily the more realistic show with a good insight into doing it in the real world. That is until david starts working on his own stuff with the water cooled credit cards lol. Still trying to get a line on the hotrod garage chick, at first i thought she was a spoiled "car girl with assets" but she definitely seems to at least be able to out weld all of them.
As most of you guys have touched on, the hard part is making things better without compromising too much. Problem with that is it takes way too much time and research to make it work with a tv show, though we do see it some with freiburger in roadkill garage with the more invest cars like the front LCA's on disgustang. Also, there is the "builders" own ideology to contend with.
Some things about it irritate me, but on the whole i like wheeler dealers, the older ones were a lot more authentic, as far as not leaving stuff out. They do a lot more to them than what they show and what they list on the "costs" sheet.
Lucky daily drives that Chevelle to his shop, so It’s about as “unfinished” as my car is. eg, it’s never finished.What I don't like about Roadkill is that everything is left incomplete. I understand and sort of agree with the philosophy of just get the car moving, don't let it sit for years and years because you're trying to get it perfect, get it running first. Ok, but then they almost never do a "part 2" where they deal with everything else wrong with the car, like the interior (or lack thereof) or bodywork/paint. Ya, it's nice to get it running, but finish the job. And it's obvious what the difference is because something like Lucky's Chevelle looks great but is still, apparently, "almost" finished? Ya, it takes a while to nail down everything, not just getting it running.
I think so, I don’t know his full background but he has a shop near the motortrend/hot rod offices, so he may have brought in on magazine projects in the past. I think I remember hearing he was one of the mechanics that built cars on early episodes of overhaulin’.Nailed exactly what i was thinking, not that im complaining really. Her and lucky seem to like eachother even if they dont really see eye to eye. I didnt know finnegan had another show. Also, that is why i like lucky so much and have wondered in the past how he got the gig, an actual mechanic that drives what he works on?
These two contradict each other a bit, don’t they? I never liked any of those sema show cars because they are literal static art pieces, they’re not driven and who would want to? I’d much rather see a car that was rotting in a field get revived to running, thrashed around and improved upon gradually rather than get blown apart, media blasted and have a crew of 6 tig weld it into a faberge egg SEMA monstrosity on staggered 24/26” wheels with a polished twin turbo LSTrue, but running ain't driving. Running means it moves without breaking down, driving means you can use it to drive to work (at least for me) with normal expectations of comfort and functionality (gauges work, heater/air works, no leaks, stereo works if it exists, doesn't smell like wet dog). Some of those Roadkill cars are useless except for beating them unmerciful on a racetrack.
I do also like watching shows like Hand Built Hot Rods (Steve Strope) but those are 2-year projects that are shown at SEMA that only celebrities and CEOs can afford. Still great to see the subtle design mods they do, things that you wish the auto companies would have done. That Nova with the '69 Camaro body lines looked amazing, and stock in badass way.
The way for someone to set up the suspension right from the beginning is to not buy a Nova or Camaro 😆 A lot of the charm in muscle cars to me is their crudeness, slapper bars fit right in, makes them look tough and really does help keep the leaf sprung axle under control. The combination of those, big tires on deep dish mag wheels and stiff air shocks just emphasizes the mechanical machine nature of those cars.Ya, not me. air shocks and slapper bars are stereotype cheap attempts at performance, that looks sloppy. Better to just get the suspension set up right from the beginning. Never liked seeing the tires sticking out past the fenders, either.
They’re better Italians than the Teksid casting foundry… ohh!Well; thats the second failed teksid blocks I've seen.
oil was black,and I dont think that's coincidence,these engines want clean oil. dude Broke a Hypereutectic piston at17lbs of boost.
That's why you want a forged lower end for boost. way to prove the dudes an idiot I will not listen to,lol.
Researching for your channel, I see 😆In the world of Youtube there is no time for shaking things out. Just blow it up and let the automotons watch it... make that view content money!
Don’t forget the clickbait thumbnail!You know it! But maybe I'll just prove that Toyotas and Hondas actually break! While restoring mn12s...
If it were a dime a dozen LQ4 from a workvan you know they’d be all remorseful tooWhat did that poor Teksid ever do to them?
Killed a perfectly good motor
And they should have known better.
RIP
The "late to the track"excuse is meaningless since it was not built correctly from the beginning.
Seriously, I can’t believe how cliche Coyote swaps have become, I went to an auction last summer and almost every restomod Ford truck/Bronco had one, which in some cases seemed like a kind of dumb choice(a Coyote powered lifted crew cab long bed F250???). I don’t know, I kind of always liked the underdogness of 4.6s, back when that was the only Ford V8 everybody knew LSx engines made more power but yet you had guys like Johnny Langton and so forth running 12s not only with 2V 4.6s but in heavy ass Tbird bodies with the right combination of parts beyond the sexy horsepower items.Agreed. While they are not respecting the car and engine as a whole like they would if it was an Impala with an LS engine in it, they are doing way more with that platform than I've seen so far. This is maybe the 2nd time I've seen a build based on an MN12/FN10 that didn't involve just ripping everything out and swapping in a Coyote motor.
I don't get the dismissive nature about these cars. They're basically stretched Mustangs of the same era, same drivetrain. They even had IRS before the Mustangs. I mean, I have always hated the foxbody Mustangs, they're ugly and cheap and barely recognizable as Mustangs (still better than the Mustang IIs, of course). But once racers started modifying them because they were plentiful and cheap and had 302s in them, everybody else got on board and starting doing articles about them. So hopefully this Tony Angelo thing could be the very beginning of "Hey, look at that, these cars are more or less like Mustangs, people should be building them, too!" video episodes.
I know the Coyote (and Aluminator) is a great motor (not to mention large) but I'm already getting bored with the swap out X for the Coyote builds, it's another version of LS-in-everything and Gen-III-Hemi-in-every-Mopar builds. I want to see more modifications of 2V/3V mod motors, combining the best parts and seeing what can be forced out of those engines.
Step one is admitting what everyone already assumes? Everyone(myself included) came to this forum and got their bubble burst at one time or another when told almost all what we assumed would fit was actually a “No.” or a “yes, but…”. The problem is very few consider the npi 4.6 SOHC/4R70w combo as a muscle car powertrain, even the 96-98 Mustang GTs are regarded as red headed stepchildren in the Mustang lineage, just above the Mustang IIsI meant only in terms of the powertrain. I would like a little more recognition for our cars as muscle cars (bigger Mustangs) vs. grandpa cars (Cadillacs). Step one in that direction would be admitting that all the same basic mods done to a Mustang could be done to a Thunderbird or Mark VIII. Of course I understand that it ain't that easy, some parts are different, many Mustang bolt-on parts won't swap over for whatever reasons, but it would be a nice challenge and change of pace vs. building another Mustang. Like building a Skylark instead of another Chevelle.
Peoples cars from this community have been featured in magazines, much of them are archived in the fleet of fame section of he articles section in the forum, and there are a few others since, @1MTNCAT and @392Bird both had full spreads in Muscle Mustangs & Fast Ford’s. At the end of the day you me or a YouTuber just can’t force things to catch on, it has to happen organically. Freiburger was really trying to make that “crew cab Chevelle” thing a trend, but a 4 door Chevelle is still a 4 door.They may be building them, but if I can't casually come across those builds through magazines or TV episodes then it's basically a secret society.
The problem here is how many MN12s are left for how many of those model specific aftermarket parts can be produced? The Grand National is one car on a platform of several other cars (Malibu, Monte Carlo, LeMans, Grand Prix, Century, Regal, Cutlass, Cutlass Supreme) A lot interchanges with GM platforms beyond, or are easy for aftermarket companies to retool since they’re not much different than the A bodies as old as 1964. You want a broad selection of aftermarket headlights? That means various styles for 89-93 Tbirds, various styles for 94-95 Tbirds, and various styles for 96-97 Tbirds, plus Cougars with the 89-90 and 91-95 style, all of which need to be DOT approved. Mustangs only changed headlight styles with full restyles, and G bodies used universal sealed beam rectangle headlights that can be used on pretty much everything made in the 80s.What I would hope to see is enough interest to spawn more aftermarket parts for them. Sure, not nearly as much profit as making more Mustang parts but how many goddamn headlights/headers/struts/sway bars/brake upgrades can companies keep making for those cars? I was surprised that I could get a larger all-aluminum radiator for my Thunderbird the way they're ignored. We need like 5 more supercoupeperformance sites but that wouldn't ever happen without more recognition and popularity. It would be nice to be able to buy simple crap like aftermarket headlights with different designs (Mustang-ish LEDs or HIDs) or even something as boring as different transmission shifter knob designs. It's the same damn transmission as a Mustang yet we have no options. Or how about new gauges with different designs (not just overlays) that would actually slot into the gauge cluster? Unless you make them by hand, forget it. But if the MN12 turned into another Mustang in terms of popularity, that might start happening. If it could achieve even a Buick Grand National level of popularity (don't tell me those cars are common or cheap), that would be an improvement. Even if just the Super Coupes could get there, most non-drivetrain parts would follow for us as well.
Stock, yes. I'm not talking about that. I'm old enough to remember when the foxbody Mustangs were considered garbage (everyone was still on the '60s bandwagon) not worth dealing with... until they weren't. It's also common knowledge that a PI swap is the convenient way to solve many ills of the NPI motors even though either head ported winds up improving to the same higher amount (but then there's the intake...) so those '96-'98 Mustangs can be bought cheap (because they're maligned) and converted into great, anyway (because most owners were going to modify whatever motor was in the car).
Mark VIIIs are full sized (F in FN10)I'm tired of it, too. But Thunderbirds and Mark VIIIs qualify. "Muscle car" means biggest/most powerful engine option from the full-size line (because those boats needed so much power just to function) installed in an intermediate sized body (MN12/FN10), rear wheel drive, 2-door, stick or auto transmission. That does not mean it is automatically the fastest car available or the most powerful it can get, there are always improvements (either factory or aftermarket). Now, there were a lot of unavoidables back then - no front-wheel drive intermediates, for example, no V6s being the most powerful motors in the options list being used in full-size cars. So the definition fell into place before any of that - RWD 2-door V8 intermediate.
By that definition any factory '69 Chevelle that is a 2-door with a V8 is a muscle car, even the weaker ones, the SS is simply the best of the bunch. Full-size powerplant gave way to any V8 (302, 350, 340, etc.) and pony cars were added to the size option. But otherwise, our cars fit that definition. The '90s Caprice/Impala design does not, no matter how many times people say it does, because it's full-size and it's 4-door. "Muscle car" isn't as simple as "fastest factory", and it's annoying reading about how early Chrysler 300s were the first muscle cars (full-size, sorry) or some other car was a muscle car (4-door or whatever). The description is overused, I agree.
The Foxbody realization was “hey wait, the bare bones LX 5.0 is faster than the once top dog F bodys!” They earned a reputation for winning races, not from a social media influencer saying “hey guys, the MN12 Tbird is the coolest car you haven’t heard of… read Wikipedia bulletpoints …like and subscribe and comment!”. These can make great project cars but they aren’t for everyone, the fact that the 83-88 Tbirds and Cougars barely have any following despite actually literally being Mustangs under the skin should say it all, looks wise they aren’t all that different from the MN12sI understand the chicken or the egg paradox of this, believe me. What has to happen is more voluntary interest outside of just us. There needs to be a foxbody Mustang realization that, wait, we're ignoring these cars that are essentially giant Mustangs (with automatics), anything we could do mechanically to those Mustangs (machine shop improvements, trans rebuilds, brakes/suspension) we can do to these MN12s, even if it's harder to do. That means more of a consideration in random magazine/TV show builds. I've seen many of those that talk about "let's try something different" and the car is different, not a Chevelle/Camaro/Road Runner/Mustang, but not our cars. Yet.
Mavericks are really light, Torinos are heavy. Neither model really garnered the kind of following the Chevelle and whatnot did so if you’re going to pick one from that period you pick the faster one. Plus, just like MN12s the Torinos had a low survival rate and had serious rust issues, Mavericks rusted too and were disposable but Ford made millions of them compared to the low tens of thousands at best Torino fastbacks. G bodies had a good survival rate because the people who bought them were the elderly and holed them up in garages till they died. MN12s in their day were treated pretty much the same by their owners as Lumina and Monte Carlos, just run into the ground.True. But those GM cars were absolutely ignored until recently, because all the "better" options were disappearing or priced to the Moon. Hey, wait, how about this shitty Malibu, maybe we can build that? I guess... Same goes for those early '70s fat Mustangs, also ignored, until you couldn't get a more desirable Mustang, and those had real V8s (detuned). Those newer late-'70s/'80s GM cars are now slowly entering into the "let's try something different" class of cars worth fixing up and improving. There was a "Car Fix" episode with a Monte Carlo, there've been a few turn a Skylark into a poor man's Grand National attempts, too. That's what I'm getting at, once you can find our cars in a random episode or in a non-make-specific magazine (Hot Rod, Hemmings) being worked over, that's when there will be the minimal enough interest.
I agree that there might not be enough MN12s/FN10s left out there, though I still see a few in junkyards showing up, so they're coming from somewhere. But I think there are enough out there waiting if the interest can increase. I go to a Ford car show every once in a while, I might see one Thunderbird or Mark VIII (Cougars basically never, not sure why). But you know what I'm starting to see more of? Mavericks. No idea why, but a couple years ago there were like 5 or 6 at the Fabulous Fords Forever show (missed this year's), that's more than the Torinos which are far superior cars. It remains to be seen if Mavericks will become the new cool cheap/alternative deal.
People do race them, people do take them to shows, what more is there to ask? People always ask me a multiple choice question of which engine I have in mine, so outsiders seem aware enough. I mean how much of a reputation can possibly be gained with the newest ones being over 25 years old? Cars don’t just suddenly surge in popularity at old age, and for those that took a little longer like G bodies(which is debatable IMO, as I said, the grand National has never not been revered) you can bet that those who have them now would dump them in an instant for a real muscle car if their prices were to fall back to earth.Ya, it's too bad. There needs to be something like a couple Super Coupes showing up (modified, probably) at car events and beating other cars in races. Not being the absolute fastest, just being viable mildly modified street cars beating other mildly modified street cars, or at least being competitive. Basic recognition, oh that's right, those things had turboed V6s sort of like GNXs, oh ya, they had the same 4.6s as Mustangs, etc. Of course the realization will be that it's not as easy as building a Mustang but why be another Mustang guy, why take the easy road? None of the other alternative muscle cars were picked because they were as good/better than the classics, they were picked because the first picks were disappearing or too damn expensive.
I see it as similar to AMC muscle cars. Nobody ever gave a crap about any of them except the AMXs. Javelins and Ramblers were the next tier down. But their V8s were oddball, little information about them, and why bother when there are so many more better options out there with more support and info? Well, "so many" isn't that true anymore, and AMXs are getting expensive and rare (a friend of mine just got his, but he's been looking for a while). Ooooh, the Javelin is the same car but with back seats! Hey, the Rambler is pretty cool, like a baby Road Runner. But, once people realize the same V8s were also in Hornets, Gremlins, Pacers (ugly as sin), now those cars are considered. Our cars are like the Ramblers, they need to become like the AMXs. Hopefully that can happen soon. It could be as simple as a character in a TV show driving one.
I’m not either, I’m just explaining why cars everyone else are doing tend to become popular in the first place, and generally speaking they all either offered a great bang for the buck formula when new like the tri-fives, or had an image associated with racing.I think there's a misunderstanding here. I'm not talking about best options for converting cars into race cars or drag cars. Yes, that is legitimate but a completely different focus from what I'm suggesting. You would pick a heavier, harder car to work on because you don't want to do what everyone else is doing (Tri-5 Chevy/Camaro/Chevelle/Charger/Challenger/Nova/Mustang/etc.) and that's with the knowledge that it will be more difficult and irritating but so what. The money wouldn't enter into it because the second you choose the non-popular option that means used parts and bodywork, you already know it will cost more.
Race cars go in the opposite direction, they're all about max horsepower (parts you'd never normally use in your car) and weight savings, which usually turns into ripping out everything to save weight. That's not a car anymore, that's fiberglass body panels, no A/C, heater, power steering, etc., tube chassis and/or rollcage, no back seat, it's a miserable car to drive (if it's even still street legal). Those people aren't interested in finesse parts to make their cars look cooler/interesting, they want speed. Which is fine for those who are into that but that doesn't widen the market for cool parts like headlights or gauges other things that only mean unnecessary weight and expense.
Wheelbase is meaningless to categorization, Crown Vics and Grand Marquis had 114” wheelbases, 68-72 Chevelle coupes had shorter wheelbases than sedans/wagons(112), and a modern Challenger is 116.2. I think the longer overall length is what pushed the Mark into full size territory(207”) but the fact remains, full size what it’s classified as, and by your definition then cannot be a Muscle car, right?Ok, but they've got the same wheelbase (113") as the MN12s, yes? So they're either all full-size or all intermediates in terms of size. I was under the impression that Town Cars (117.4") were full-size. In real world comparisons our cars are basically between the size of Chevelles (116") and Challengers (110").
It’s really pretty simple SS396(both Nova and a Chevelle)/SS454, GTO, 442, Skylark GS, Fairlane GT/GTA, Torino GT/Cobra, Comet GT, Cyclone, GTX, RoadRunner, Coronet R/T, Superbee, Charger R/T, Dart GTS w/383+ and Rebel Machine/Matador Machine were muscle cars. Small blocks weren’t muscle cars, ponycars weren’t muscle cars. Potent ones ala Duster 340 were sport compacts, performance ponycars were sports cars.I agree there, the "full-size" cars kept getting bigger through the early '60s to the early '70s. But so did all the other sizes. So, a very loose set of definitions. But the muscle car label is what it is (meaning it was never an official industry designation). Ya, there were a lot of muscle cars back then. And also a lot of the exact same intermediates with straight 6s or tiny 2-barrel V8s (and some 4-door versions). I think the definition went from "full-size powerplant into intermediate car" to "powerful V8 into intermediate car" to accommodate the small-blocks and "smaller" big-blocks.
A Chevelle 327 coupe today would be the equivalent to a Toyota Camry, the original owners bought them for basic transportation. Yes the line blurs between hard rock and metal, but for me that blur would be whether to group compacts and ponycars with big blocks as muscle cars or not. But a 327 Chevelle is neither hard rock or metal, it’s easy listening at best, the equivalent of a mundane Camry today. Most people who bought mid level V8 intermediate coupes just wanted basic transportation with a little pep, not to burn out from every stoplight and get attention with the scoops and racing stripes.Well, ya, that's the problem with a non-official, never nailed down definition. It's like asking what is hard rock and what is metal? Good luck. The GTO is rightly considered the first true muscle car because it was the first to be built on purpose to make the intermediate overpowered (compared to the expected engine options) though there are legitimate arguments for much earlier "firsts". "Muscle car" grades on a curve because those lesser late '70s/early '80s cars were muscle cars, but they performed like choking dogs. Which is the only reason a Buick turbo V6 could catch up. I mean, what was stopping GM from installing turbo V8s in cars and wiping the floor with the GNXs? Either gas prices or insurance. The modern 3 muscle cars are no joke, they'd eat any '60s/'70s muscle car alive and that's with catalytic converters, A/C, sound deadening, and power seats, hahaahaa!
Hot rods are custom built, Muscle cars are imitations of hot rods mass produced by manufacturer, they are mutually exclusive. If you start with a 307 Chevelle and drop in a 454, it’s a hot rod, not a muscle car. If you soup up a SS454 only then it can be both.All muscle cars are hot rods or performance cars, but not all hot rods or performance cars are muscle cars.
Mavericks were always being used as race cars though, people know they have the potential to be that which is what makes them desirable build platforms for the street, just like Fox Mustangs. People tend to gravitate towards a known entity, and under the skin the Maverick is basically no different than building up an early Mustang. For me I’d unquestionably pick the Torino too, I don’t like small cars, but you simply don’t find them in classifieds often, but for whatever reason it’s not that hard to find a Maverick. It’s not even really a choice for those people, it’s what they could get their hands on, knowing it has the potential for speed is a confidence booster in making one a project car.Agreed, but not all foxbody owners race their cars, I think way more owners just want something they could mildly wake up to be better than stock and brag about streetlight to streetlight, a little fun driving to work. Improved suspension/brakes, another 50-100 horsepower, and more than anything being available and affordable because '60s Mustangs were long gone or rusted hulks. I bought my '95 Thunderbird because the Mustang was ugly, the Camaro and Firebird were too expensive, and Dodge had nothing with a V8. Insurance prices played into that, too. Initially I just sort of liked my car, best of a bunch of poor choices, but over the years I've grown to genuinely really like this car's looks. Change out the melted cheese nose and tail pieces and it's a '70 large pony car like a Challenger. The '83-'88 version was too blocky with weird proportions (wheel placement). My favorite car all-time is still a '71 Challenger but this Thunderbird isn't a bad modern choice at all.
None of those Mavericks I saw were built race cars. Ok, maybe one (and it looked like it would be painful to ride in). The rest were more restored and optimized (swapped in V8), almost all with the non-functional but cool ram-air hood (baby steps). I think there's a bit of popular car fatigue that's playing into some of these lesser cars being finally noticed. But also availability, obviously, and expense. If "really light" mattered, Mavericks would have been popular for the last 30+ years because they were always cheap. That clearly isn't the case. For me I'd pick the better looking one, which means a '70-'71 Torino. The '72s+ are ugly, the '69s and earlier are boring. But, ya, good luck finding body/interior parts. Hmm, where have I heard that before...
Well, ALL Muscle cars were maligned as mullet/trailer trash cars at one time or another, the IROC - Z increasing in value shouldn’t be much of a surprise, it was the most potent F body of that generation afterallAgain, outside of one TCCoA meeting I attended in Fullerton(?) years ago, I've seen at most one Thunderbird or Mark VIII at any Ford-specific car show. Now I suppose that might be different in other parts of the country. The Maverick has definitely surged in popularity vs. what I remember from just like 8 years ago and before. I think the IROC-era Camaros are starting to hit that surge, too (there were maligned as "mullet" cars, hahahaa). You can kind of tell from watching those Mecum auctions, they'll point out popularity trends, notice 3 examples of a car that couldn't get near an auction just a few years earlier, better buy them now before they hit 6 figures! Thankfully the Mustang IIs still haven't gotten there (them becoming popular is one of the signs of the Apocalypse).
I always liked the G-bodies but hated those miserable 305s and 307s (of course now an LS swap solves that issue). They're a little too blocky but they have some wedgy aspects to them, too. Huh, 108" wheelbase, I guess that's why those cars look like their wheels are too close to the center (too much overhang).