Racing lineage isn’t the rule, there’s a pop culture element as well, the 68-70 Charger was practically a character actor in movies after its appearance in Bullitt. But the impact it made was right away, heck even when it first sported the 01, rebel flag and orange paint on TV and entered the imaginations of every 80s-90s kid through reruns, it was only a 10 year old car in the pilot!
Ya, and they destroyed
so many of those Chargers during that TV show's run! It actually makes me sick to think about it, but it did put the Charger on the map like nothing else.
The Charger in Bullitt was actually originally intended to be a Torino fastback, as Ford was the vehicle supplier for the film. In that alternate reality the automotive landscape might be completely flipped. Maybe if Jade wasn’t such a piece of **** Tbirds would be used in more movies and way more popular today, who knows?
Oh wow, that would have been interesting, though my favorite Torino is the '70 so having a '68 be famous wouldn't help that much but I bet the Torino name would have really skyrocketed so the next few years would have been like the Chargers in terms of popularity.
What the hell? I never heard of that movie. And Googling it I see that there was a Thunderbird prominently involved in a chase. Aw man, now I'm depressed. You're right, that could have changed things.
Wheelbase is meaningless to categorization, Crown Vics and Grand Marquis had 114” wheelbases, 68-72 Chevelle coupes had shorter wheelbases than sedans/wagons(112), and a modern Challenger is 116.2. I think the longer overall length is what pushed the Mark into full size territory(207”) but the fact remains, full size what it’s classified as, and by your definition then cannot be a Muscle car, right?
Back then ('60s/'70s) it mattered. Of course now that I'm looking for the info I can't find it (everything is referencing rental cars, like that's important?) but -
Wheelbase is listed as (in inches) -
Size Avg Range
Small 108 97 to 111
Intermediate 114 112 to 117
Full 123 117 to 133
This aligns with what I have run across in various car mags I've read over the years (Mopar Action, Hot Rod, Hemmings Muscle Machines, etc.) in terms of typical lengths across makes. But I think you have a point in terms of overall length being important. And nobody could standardize the different sizes, anyway.
The Mark VIII is simply the luxury/rich version of the Thunderbird. It's like a GTX vs. a Road Runner. Or a Skylark vs. a Chevelle. Didn't somebody here swap in an entire Mark VIII interior into his Thunderbird? That would be impossible (in terms of dash/panel gaps) if the Mark VIII was actually bigger, they share all the dimensions. Seeing as how the MN12/FN10 is basically the same size as a classic Chevelle I'd say they're all intermediates.
It’s really pretty simple SS396(both Nova and a Chevelle)/SS454, GTO, 442, Skylark GS, Fairlane GT/GTA, Torino GT/Cobra, Comet GT, Cyclone, GTX, RoadRunner, Coronet R/T, Superbee, Charger R/T, Dart GTS w/383+ and Rebel Machine/Matador Machine were muscle cars. Small blocks weren’t muscle cars, ponycars weren’t muscle cars. Potent ones ala Duster 340 were sport compacts, performance ponycars were sports cars.
"Muscle car" was never tied to any specific model names or packages (because it's not an official designation). Yes,
all those cars are muscle cars. But many people back then didn't have the money for the top dog versions so they ordered the poor man's version, which had many of the same performance parts while also ignoring others, which resulted in a cheaper car (and lower insurance) that would then be upgraded at home "unofficially". For example there were loads of Satellites that were ordered like taxis, bench seats, lamer engine option, no A/C or power steering, whatever, and then the necessary cam/heads/intake/carb/exhaust was added after the fact. Build sheet doesn't matter, if it's a "performance" V8 in an intermediate 2-door RWD car, it's a muscle car. My own Road Runner (that my brother now owns) had drum brakes all around and a bench seat with the 383 4-barrel. Nothing fantastic, but it is now getting bucket seats, a built 440, etc., if it were a Satellite the result would be the same - muscle car.
I wouldn't slag on small-blocks, either. Pony cars were added as muscle cars once they existed because they, too, had the same performance V8s as options and shared most other parts with the intermediates. And, again, because of vagueness in sizes, some pony cars were as big as the smaller intermediates (Mopar E-bodies). Mustangs could get Boss 429s in them, Darts could get Hemis, etc. Some cars that were compacts got redesignated as pony cars with mostly body panel changes.
Course there are exceptions or arguments like special order low trim big engine combinations and big block ponycars, but generally speaking if it’s a designated performance trim package tied to a BASE engine displacing close to 400ci and above it’s a Muscle car.
All that's necessary for muscle car is performance V8 in an intermediate (later also pony car) body (and 2-door and RWD), the trim package never entered into it. Obviously all those versions would qualify automatically, but the lower one or two versions could be just as capable. They didn't need to be the fastest or
most powerful, just in the performance range. A LeMans with the 400 was just as much a muscle car as the GTO, even without Ram Air heads but it would have to be upgraded to compete, of course.
A Chevelle 327 coupe today would be the equivalent to a Toyota Camry, the original owners bought them for basic transportation. Yes the line blurs between hard rock and metal, but for me that blur would be whether to group compacts and ponycars with big blocks as muscle cars or not. But a 327 Chevelle is neither hard rock or metal, it’s easy listening at best, the equivalent of a mundane Camry today. Most people who bought mid level V8 intermediate coupes just wanted basic transportation with a little pep, not to burn out from every stoplight and get attention with the scoops and racing stripes.
I wouldn't dismiss the 327 so quickly, it's a solid motor. And swapping in a smaller crank to get it down to 302ci is what got you a Z28 Camaro back in the '60s, that thing was a terror. Of course
that motor wasn't in the Chevelle you describe but it could be easily built up. Many cars were bought hobbled, single exhaust, lower compression, 2-barrel, etc., but then all the go-fast parts were added later as budget and enthusiasm allowed.
I don’t think nearly any late 70s, 80 or 90s car qualifies as a muscle car, the priorities shifted too much, but the Grand National does make the greatest case for itself because it really was a (then)hot engine thrown into a dressed up midsize body. Modern Muscle is too spohisticated in tech, and while industry standards evolve and could be said that 60s cars were state of the art relative to what came before them 50 years earlier, the equipping of big block engines into intermediate bodies was a documented unintentional mating of the two(the GTO was a violation of corporate policy), they were deliberately under engineered in effect. It’s not a good thing, but that’s a big part of what defines them, muscle cars are called such because they are the automotive equivalent to a meathead. The modern approach of stability controls, traction controls, having huge very effective brakes and good handling makes them something else, something more akin to an American AMG Mercedes Or M series BMW
All the Camaros and Firebirds from that era would qualify (assuming V8s). You also have to grade on a curve, what was the better/best performing cars for any particular year. The smog motors were pathetic, couldn't even get to 200hp. But still better than the alternatives available. Smog pumps, low compression, single exhausts, all that crap could be ditched, and they were. There were many 305-to-350 swaps, early heads/cams, dual exhausts, etc. The G-bodies are weak muscle cars.
Not because they were amazing performers but simply because they fit the basic definition, best V8 in a 2-door RWD intermediate. Or pony car, those Firebirds were getting positively fat by the late '80s. Now I'm starting to see Mopar F-bodies (Aspen Super Coupes and R/Ts, Volaré Road Runners) get the slightest bit of interest because they still have V8s in 2-door RWD bodies and they're more or less the right size (not full). I don't think they'll ever reach G-body interest, though.
Ya, the modern pony cars are actually boring for many muscle car fans, too much tech, too safe. There's no "seat of the pants" thrill to them in terms of "Will this thing hold together at this speed?" during a race. Absolutely it will hold together. It probably also has heated seats and cupholders, too. Some of them even come with line locks for the drag strip. Come on already, that's too easy.
Hot rods are custom built, Muscle cars are imitations of hot rods mass produced by manufacturer, they are mutually exclusive. If you start with a 307 Chevelle and drop in a 454, it’s a hot rod, not a muscle car. If you soup up a SS454 only then it can be both.
I'm not sure where you're getting this distinction from. This is the first time I've heard anyone say that swapping in a 454 into a 307 Chevelle would
not automatically make that car a muscle car. It would be a muscle car with the crappy 307, just not in any way impressive or desirable. Disappointing, to say the least, but a starting point for future greatness. If you swapped in a straight-6 into that SS454 it would cease to be a muscle car in the same way that Patrick Mahomes with his hands cut off would cease to be a quarterback.
Mavericks were always being used as race cars though, people know they have the potential to be that which is what makes them desirable build platforms for the street, just like Fox Mustangs. People tend to gravitate towards a known entity, and under the skin the Maverick is basically no different than building up an early Mustang. For me I’d unquestionably pick the Torino too, I don’t like small cars, but you simply don’t find them in classifieds often, but for whatever reason it’s not that hard to find a Maverick. It’s not even really a choice for those people, it’s what they could get their hands on, knowing it has the potential for speed is a confidence booster in making one a project car.
I suppose so, but over the decades I've rarely seen any Mavericks featured in magazines as either cool cars to own (valuable) or great race cars. Every once in a great while, yes, one shows up. But even reading about car shows that include racing, Mavericks rarely show up. I don't doubt that Mavericks and Vegas (and Monzas) are great, cheap, light race car options. But popular, no way. Not yet. Foxbody Mustangs, absolutely.
Again, there's a distinction between wanting a car as a project car for the track and wanting a car to restore/lightly modify as a cool fast car to show off and cruise around in. You go to a car show and see how many cars are parked there for judging, you can count on one hand the Mavericks. I'm sure there are way more primered no-back-seat heaterless Mavericks out there racing than there are nice preserved examples with better brakes and new interiors.
I do think there’s a degree of popular car fatigue, but I’m not sure that’s my own perspective from being into cars for so long or if that really is something the bulk of enthusiasts actually feel. I think what’s been going on in the blowing up of the Bronco/Blazer/Pickup world might be more representative of fatigue for muscle cars in general, rather than the less popular car models showing up at shows.
I've seen it (or heard it) in various magazine write-ups and car restoration shows, the feeling that why do another Camaro/Chevelle/Mustang (and others). It's similar to the LS engine swap fatigue. The Gen III Hemis are approaching that, the Coyotes still have a little time left before people are tired of those swaps, too. I'm no expert or industry insider, I'm looking at this as simply a car fan, but I see the G-bodies creeping up as the new emerging option to restore/build up, amongst others. Full-size cars are harder because they have even
less replacement parts available compared to unpopular intermediates/pony cars. It's weird, I think the earlier S-197 Mustangs have been ignored a bit, I'm wondering when they'll blow up, they are my favorite modern Mustang because they look like classic '69/'70 Mustangs before all the goofy Transformers fake air scoops and tough shapes were added. Maybe it's the 3V 4.6 that people don't like.
Well, ALL Muscle cars were maligned as mullet/trailer trash cars at one time or another, the IROC - Z increasing in value shouldn’t be much of a surprise, it was the most potent F body of that generation afterall
No, not like those IROC versions (rear window louvers compound the issue, I don't know why). Many muscle cars are considered cool, especially ones that show up in movies (and the cool guys drive them). As much as I hate the Fast And Furious movies, they've promoted a few muscle cars, as did "Reacher" and a few others ("Dazed And Confused"). Those Camaros were dismissed because of their weak 305s and they were heavy. But now that you can't find a 1st or 2nd gen F-body for a reasonable price, the 3rd gen is getting some belated love. They're actually showing up in Mecum auctions lately.
But I’m really not seeing your point here, that these cars aren’t common car show/auction sights, but Mavericks of late are. Well then what happened to increase the popularity of Mavericks in that time that should be happening to these? I haven’t really been aware of any trend setting Mavericks, or prominent project Mavericks on motortrend or YouTube, so it seems to me they’re surging organically, without any assistance. I mean there are at least three prominent online communities for MN12s, videos and pictures scattered all over elsewhere, some of the fastest ones at the tracks on YouTube, numerous articles on the blog sites, and many of us do attend shows to get them out there, so I just don’t know what else can be done to get anyone to flock to these cars in greater numbers than they already are.
Well, the point is more wishful thinking, I know. It's dumb but it's because I'm a fan of our MN12s. It popped into my head because of this discussion about Tony Angelo beating the hell out of a Mark VIII on his show. Right now MN12s are like a local rock band that everybody likes and is really good, but nobody else is aware of it, they can't get to the next level of touring and album sales. I look at Tony's "Stay Tuned" car appearance as so close to getting the MN12 out there. But it's a YouTube show, "local". If these cars can get to the non-specific-brand magazine article level, a write-up on a Super Coupe in Hemmings Muscle Machines, a worked over LX in Hot Rod, maybe, then that might be the trigger for "Hey, that's right, those cars have potential!" and possibly (don't kill my dreams!) getting a bump in popularity to the point of an aftermarket response specific to these cars and not just hand-me-down parts from Mustangs. The growing G-body treatment and the resulting increase in parts variety.
I guess I'm wondering if there could possibly be a way for someone who owns one of these cars to wind up on an episode of "Texas Metal" or "Garage Squad" or whatever where they beef up the motor, do some custom body/suspension work, and wind up with a car that is surprisingly cool even to longtime fans like us.