TCCoA Forums banner

What prompts tc to unlock

1910 Views 23 Replies 9 Participants Last post by  RichardM
What signals the torque converter to unlock? I know the brake pedal signals it to unlock, and when I tap the brake, it does unlock as it should.
What else signals it to unlock?
When I am just cruising along and I apply light throttle, it just rattles and detonates. I have started just tapping the brake with my left foot whenever I want to pass somebody or speed up.
Next time I drive it, I will see how much gas pedal it actually needs to unlock.
Does the TPS send a signal to unlock?
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
The PCM controls the TCC solenoid in the transmission, which controls pressure flow to the converter clutch. The PCM program has a number of scenarios where the TC clutch is partially or fully unlocked, which use a variety of the sensors. TP, MAF, RPM, VSS, even the crank sensor contribute in some way to what state the TCC is in.

  • The TC is always unlocked completely in 1st and 2nd gear. In 1st, it is hydraulically impossible for it to be locked, even if the TCC solenoid was commanded full on. For 2/3/4 the TCC is responsible for the locked/open state. In the factory program, the TC does not lock in 2nd gear.
  • If the transmission fluid is very cold (typically under 55), the PCM will not lock the converter. This is to generate heat to allow the drivetrain to more quickly warm up. After the transmission fluid reaches 95F the converter and shift schedule return to normal.
  • The converter will lock after the 2-3 shift completes. The PCM slowly ramps up pressure to the TCC to smooth the application and avoid shocking the driveline.
  • The PCM is monitoring the converter in/out speed ratio. A ratio of 1.00 means the speed of the input shaft of the transmission is the same speed as the engine. A ratio of .5 means the engine is spinning twice as fast as the transmission input shaft because of the converter being unlocked.
    When applying the TCC to lock the converter, the ratio has to be at least .8 otherwise the PCM will leave leave the converter unlocked until the ratio gets closer to 1.00 again. This is for better performance because of the torque multiplication through the unlocked converter at low speed. An example would be if you had the throttle open to, say, 30-40% to maintain moderate acceleration from a stop while going uphill. Under these conditions it would be detrimental to performance for the PCM to try and lock the converter when shifting into 3rd or 4th gear as the engine RPM would drop to a speed too low to produce enough torque to keep the vehicle accelerating as driver input demands (lugging).
  • The PCM considers how quickly the driver changes throttle position. If a lot of throttle is applied quickly (high throttle rate), the converter will stay unlocked for a moment to keep from shocking the driveline.
  • The PCM has a relationship chart of vehicle speed and throttle position that determines whether it will try to lock or keep the converter unlocked. At low throttle positions, the converter generally is locked. At medium throttles the TC may stay unlocked until a higher vehicle speed is reached (see my notes above about lugging).
  • When the transmission shifts between gears, the TC is at least partially unlocked. About 3 seconds after the shift completes it reapplies.
  • When you let off the throttle and re-apply it, the TC is unlocked briefly (tip-in). This is to reduce driveline shock and improve ride quality.
  • When you are decelerating from higher speeds for a sufficient length of time (coasting) the PCM will re-lock the converter and shut fuel to the injectors off completely, allowing the momentum of the car to keep the engine from stalling. This is known as CFSO, coasting fuel shutoff.
  • When you depress the brake pedal the PCM unlocks the converter (and if it was in CFSO before turns fuel back on).
  • There are other parameters in TCC operation that relate to the amount of calculated torque the engine is producing. The converter will unlock, for example, if the PCM thinks the engine is making over 280 ft-lbs of torque as a precaution to protect the driveline.
  • The PCM will command the TCC to slip slightly as the A/C clutch cycles. As with many other behaviors, this is to reduce NVH on the driver.
As you can see, TCC behavior is rather complex. In general - beyond protecting the driveline - its behavior is to minimize NVH and provide a smooth experience for the vehicle's occupants.
See less See more
  • Like
  • Helpful
Reactions: 5
If it doesn't want to unlock with light throttle application, but will instantly unlock with a brake tap, what is a possible/probable cause? This happens both on flat ground and going uphill.
I can think of two things.

The first is that your particular program behaves slightly different than the ones I am familar with. I loaded up the MBE3 program for reference as well to ensure I was providing accurate information earlier, but it's also consistent with the behavior of my 98 LSC. I am not sure what its catch code (program) is.

The second would be the TPS. If it's not dropping to below 1V at idle/closed throttle the PCM may not be implementing the various things it does during idle deceleration etc.
If it doesn't want to unlock with light throttle application, but will instantly unlock with a brake tap, what is a possible/probable cause? This happens both on flat ground and going uphill.
This sounds like normal behavior. My transmission is the same. What exactly is the concern?
It sounds like a can of marbles when you try to lightly accelerate or climb a small rise or pass somebody until you tap the brake with your left foot, then it unlocks the tc, then takes off like it should have done without tapping the brake to manually unlock the tc.
It is not normal at all.
I have never had to drive an automatic with 2 feet.
It sounds like a can of marbles when you try to lightly accelerate or climb a small rise or pass somebody until you tap the brake with your left foot, then it unlocks the tc, then takes off like it should have done without tapping the brake to manually unlock the tc.
It is not normal at all.
I have never had to drive an automatic with 2 feet.
Can of marbles huh? Clean the Mass airflow sensor. See if that changes things.
Can of marbles?
Are you sure it's not the rumble strip phenomenon? That's a very common problem with these transmissions that happens under light acceleration mostly when going slightly uphill. And it does have that marble sound along with a rumble strip like vibration.
There's is a TSB about it which I linked in a recent thread. The short story is that it's related to loss of friction properties in the fluid due to heat degradation. Do you know if your transmission has Mercon or Mercon V?
Yeah, I agree sounds like TC shudder. Could use a J-mod too I'm sure.
  • Like
Reactions: 1
Spark knock. I agree, the "can of marbles" sounds like pre-ignition "pinging" due to a combination of running lean and too much timing due to a dirty MAF sensor.

Clean the MAF sensor and replace the trans fluid and I'm sure all will be much better. :)
  • Like
Reactions: 1
It isnt tc shudder. I have test driven a 97 with tc shudder before. It has mercon v and a jmod and a pi swap and a tune and a smaller converter and 373s. The maf was also cleaned 5000km ago when the pi swap was done and the issue has been there since.
When I did the pi swap and jmod, I had no first and reverse due to the servo rubber seal disintegrating. I put a used one in that I had here. My front pump seal leaks, and I am sure every seal in the transmission is in the same condition. (318,000km)
I have to rebuild my transmission still, I just haven't had the time, and it is still getting itself around.
It makes me wonder if it is something in the transmission that is causing the issue.
I am going to put the stock tune back in it to rule that out, and get to work rebuilding and swapping my transmission, and see where I sit after that.
It did not do it before the pi swap and the tune and the jmod.
That said, I can visualize in my mind the route the transmission fluid takes in the transmission looking like a sieve everywhere there is a piece of rubber, especially since the tune and the jmod would have bumped up the fluid pressure from stock. And my manual 1 is stronger than auto 1, which seems to have a slip which makes my 1-2 hit so hard. Harder than my other jmods I have done.
Mercon v was changed 5000km ago also.
See less See more
  • Like
Reactions: 2
Copy that. You definitely considered this from every possible angle.

I do stand by my previous point though: what you're describing seems normal to me.

To be specific, when cruising with torque converter locked up, initial throttle tip-in does not unlock the torque converter; that's what you're describing as the concern, correct? But that's exactly how my car behaves. To unlock the torque converter, I have to push the throttle quite a bit further; I would guess that's a fuel saving strategy. Granted, my car has a stock calibration; so I may be comparing apples and oranges.
IIRC, it takes a 25% throttle to downshift, I don't remember what it takes to unlock.
For what it's worth I wouldn't rebuild a stock transmission; I buy 2002 Gran Marquis transmissions to rebuild. (even a 2002 needs rebuilt, at 20 yo.) There are changes that make a difference. Also, read the rebuild diary on explorerforum.com. https://www.explorerforum.com/forums/threads/4r70w-transmission-rebuild-diary.128800/

The one piece seals make a huge difference on longevity.
  • Like
Reactions: 1
I was looking at the factory MBE3 lock/unlock tables. Under about 40% throttle the lock/unlock speed/throttle varies but over 40% throttle it's commanded full lockup in both 3rd and 4th. I'm happy to post them if anyone wants to go cross-eyed looking at them. The lockup table and shift schedule go hand-in-hand. Typically the TC unlocks a couple MPH before the trans downshifts if you're coasting. If you apply light throttle before it downshifts, it just leaves the converter unlocked until you get back up to the normal speed it would upshift to for the gear you're already in, then locks again.

As to the notes about it not always unlocking for tip-in, I notice that too. But sometimes it does. Clearly I don't know the answer to that one! 😂
  • Like
Reactions: 1
I found out that if you leave out Ball #9, the tc will only unlock in 1st and reverse. :) It also makes screaming noises if you do a wot 2-3 shift, lol.
I drove Lazarus like this for a month, then decided I liked it. That tip was referenced in one of the superior kits I bought.
Unless you're building them, I wouldn't recommend it. I'm sure it will eventually kill it badly.
I pulled the tune out of my computer, and reinstalled the stock tune, and the detonation has gone away. It also unlocks the tc with the gas pedal now, where before it would just ping like crazy and I would have to tap the brake to unlock tc.
I wonder what is wrong in the tune, they have done a ton of these I am sure.
I wonder what is wrong in the tune, they have done a ton of these I am sure.
Who did it? I'd tell them what's going on.

Joe
  • Like
Reactions: 2
I told them at the beginning something was up with the way it ran, so they adjusted it for ethanol in the gas.
The pinging continued, and every time I wanted to speed up from cruising speed without it rattling, I had to tap the brake to manually unlock the converter, then it would be more or less normal acceleration without the pinging unless I was hard into the gas.
I have driven it for a few hours today, and there is a night and day difference in performance . Shifting was better and faster with the tune, but if it is pinging so much it is gutless, it kind of negates the better shifting.
I have to get into the transmission and rebuild it before I complain to them about the tune, just in case it is the higher line pressures in a leaky transmission that is causing the issue.
It is a lasota tune, so I figured they would have it right without any problems with my basic mods.
He's tuned a bunch of these; if you were running a 93 octane tune and running 89, it will rattle like hell.
  • Like
Reactions: 3
It's a 91 tune, and I am running 91
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top